Thick/dishonest yacht brokers that photo-shop the images...

[jwilson]

Ive just looked at yachtnet.co.uk, and I agree the pics/website is great. But ive never visited the site to view boats.
Steveeasy

I run Yachtsnet. We do usually Photoshop out the names on boats, for two reasons. Some names are just awful and will put people off, also an easily identifiable boat can be the target for thieves - as we have listed a fairly detailed inventory - and also otherwise innocent "browsers" think it's OK to clamber all over a boat for sale unaccompanied.

We aim for our photos to be the best in the business except for the superyacht market where you do lengthy setups and often hire models. The one criticism of our photos we sometimes get is that they make interiors look too light, because we do use some lighting - so you can see into the shadows.

On contracts, if we sell a boat we expect to get paid our 4% or 6% commission (or our £750 minimum). If the owner genuinely sells it himself through a notice on the yacht club noticeboard or similar small ad, we charge nothing.

We have just once in many many sales had a buyer go to some trouble to trace the owner and do a private deal behind our back. The owner was well aware we'd showed the boat. The marina ratted on them to us. As I'd spent much of a day and driven 160 miles to show the buyer the boat we did pursue this with the owner, and eventually (under threat of court) received our commission payment. I will of course never again deal with either person.

Now I'm writing, I'd be curious to know how many people really like handheld videos of boat interiors that some brokers are using?

 

[steveeasy]

I run Yachtsnet. We do usually Photoshop out the names on boats, for two reasons. Some names are just awful and will put people off, also an easily identifiable boat can be the target for thieves - as we have listed a fairly detailed inventory - and also otherwise innocent "browsers" think it's OK to clamber all over a boat for sale unaccompanied.

We aim for our photos to be the best in the business except for the superyacht market where you do lengthy setups and often hire models. The one criticism of our photos we sometimes get is that they make interiors look too light, because we do use some lighting - so you can see into the shadows.

On contracts, if we sell a boat we expect to get paid our 4% or 6% commission (or our £750 minimum). If the owner genuinely sells it himself through a notice on the yacht club noticeboard or similar small ad, we charge nothing.

We have just once in many many sales had a buyer go to some trouble to trace the owner and do a private deal behind our back. The owner was well aware we'd showed the boat. The marina ratted on them to us. As I'd spent much of a day and driven 160 miles to show the buyer the boat we did pursue this with the owner, and eventually (under threat of court) received our commission payment. I will of course never again deal with either person.

Now I'm writing, I'd be curious to know how many people really like handheld videos of boat interiors that some brokers are using?

Not too fussed over videos, but must be beneficial. However your images on your site really do stand out, and very reasonable commission charges if you don't mind me saying.

Steveeasy

 

[Bitterend]

Some brokers are very good with photos. Boatshed, for example, generally include loads of photos, and confirm that they have taken them - but it's infuriating that you have to register to view them, this must deter a lot of potential buyers. Higher up the price ladder, John Rodriguez of JR Yachts always has good pics and very detailed specs.

Boatshed are great at providing multiple current pics and all you have to do to see them is provide an email address,,,,and the major plus is they do not bombard you with unsolicited mail. Well done Boatshed, excellent example of good broker approach.

 

[blackfish]

I run Yachtsnet. We do usually Photoshop out the names on boats, for two reasons. Some names are just awful and will put people off, also an easily identifiable boat can be the target for thieves - as we have listed a fairly detailed inventory - and also otherwise innocent "browsers" think it's OK to clamber all over a boat for sale unaccompanied.

We aim for our photos to be the best in the business except for the superyacht market where you do lengthy setups and often hire models. The one criticism of our photos we sometimes get is that they make interiors look too light, because we do use some lighting - so you can see into the shadows.

On contracts, if we sell a boat we expect to get paid our 4% or 6% commission (or our £750 minimum). If the owner genuinely sells it himself through a notice on the yacht club noticeboard or similar small ad, we charge nothing.

We have just once in many many sales had a buyer go to some trouble to trace the owner and do a private deal behind our back. The owner was well aware we'd showed the boat. The marina ratted on them to us. As I'd spent much of a day and driven 160 miles to show the buyer the boat we did pursue this with the owner, and eventually (under threat of court) received our commission payment. I will of course never again deal with either person.

Now I'm writing, I'd be curious to know how many people really like handheld videos of boat interiors that some brokers are using?

Not keen on the wobbly video offerings. Would much rather have a load of still shots (like, e.g., Boatshed).

 

[Blue Sunray]

Now I'm writing, I'd be curious to know how many people really like handheld videos of boat interiors that some brokers are using?

I found the better ones very useful (eg James Dickens and Berthons) however others are pretty useless, for example some of those from Boatshed,com.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I found the better ones very useful (eg James Dickens and Berthons) however others are pretty useless, for example some of those from Boatshed,com.

Boatshed can be very variable ... I'm not bothered about the photographic skill too much, but sometimes the pictures are titchy. They really need to be 1200 x 900 minimum, but sometimes they use 640 x 480 which is soooooooo last century. On the plus side, I bought by 26-footer through them and when I went to see her, 400 miles from home, absolutely nothing came as a surprise.

 

[Tranona]

It's about time the industry was investigated and proper legislation put in place. There is frequent clear mis-representation by brokers either through sheer laziness or deliberate dishonesty. I always ask for up to date photos and copies of service history before I even travel to view a boat now.

There are already pretty robust laws covering all businesses for misrepresentation. If you think that a business is misrepresenting something report them to Trading Standards.

 

[NealB]

A few years ago, we (two of us) flew out to Levkas specifically to view a boat listed by a well known UK broker.

She looked very tidy on their website, with a well kept, fresh looking interior, and a remarkably clean engine and bilges.

She may have been reasonably sound, but she was a real mess: poorly home finished, and showing many signs of a hard life.

It turned out that they had used original brochure shots of a yard finished sister ship.

We had a good week's holiday, anyway, but were far from happy with the broker's approach.

 

[Bru]

A few years ago, we (two of us) flew out to Levkas specifically to view a boat listed by a well known UK broker.

She looked very tidy on their website, with a well kept, fresh looking interior, and a remarkably clean engine and bilges.

She may have been reasonably sound, but she was a real mess: poorly home finished, and showing many signs of a hard life.

It turned out that they had used original brochure shots of a yard finished sister ship.

We had a good week's holiday, anyway, but were far from happy with the broker's approach.

I think if I could have proved that they'd used photos of a different boat, I'd have been after them for my costs incurred in flying out to view the boat. The only thing better than a good weeks holiday is a FREE good weeks holiday

(We too were considering a boat for sale in Lefkas. In the end, we didn't go out there to see her because I decided there was something not quite kosher about the situation - it looked far too good a deal to be true if the boat was as described and pictured and I strongly suspected we'd go to all the expense of going to see her to find she wasn't as advertised)

 

[JumbleDuck]

There are already pretty robust laws covering all businesses for misrepresentation. If you think that a business is misrepresenting something report them to Trading Standards.

I have seen it claimed here that misrepresentation by a broker is irrelevant because they are not selling anything themselves, just facilitating a private sale by the current owner.

 

[jonic]

I run a very specialist "hands on" brokerage and this is how I do it.

When I'm setting up the marketing I think about the details I as a Blue Water Cruiser would be interested in, then reflect that back in the spec, photos and video.

As an example this yacht http://www.jryachts.com/boat-details?boatid=1329604
has just sold. It took us the best part of a weeks worth of solid work just to bring her to market, but she sold at full asking within 24 hours of us going live - to a client already on our database.

The client made a trip of over 200 miles based on watching the video and a detailed telephone discussion with me. The advertising then brought 9 solid enquiries who we put on a waiting list whilst she went to survey. She surveyed well so we had nine disappointed clients to call.

But this takes a considerable investment of time and money upfront by us.

It's not financially viable to open ourselves up to the risk of possibly being paid nothing at all for our work and time - or not even covering our out of pocket expenses - by having the owner trying to sell privately at the same time. The owners contract to employ us over a set timeframe and we are paid at the end of the process once the boat has sold.

The work would start with a detailed telephone discussion with the owner, then an initial valuation and inspection. In this case she was in Eastbourne so it was a 210 mile round trip in the car. Photography and video was a full day on site, then another full day in the office to process and edit.

Intital checks on VAT, Title and RCD (exempt) and drawing up the spec would be another full day with numerous emails and phone calls to verify and check things.

Then we would buy multiple advertising slots as well as set up mass mailouts to our database, produce the ads and go live.

And this is all BEFORE we have dealt with a single enquiry over the phone and email or attended a physical viewing.

Now in this case she sold very, very quickly but we still dealt with over 80 emails and a large number of phone calls.

Then we attended the boat again for the survey which was another full day and 200 miles, drew up the sales agreement and administered that and the deposit and final payments over a three week period.

We then produced the completion documents and the legal transfer, dealt with the surveyor and insurers and found the owner a new berth.

We are only able to invest this much effort, time and money upfront because we have a sole/central listing agreement that employs us properly and allows us to do so.

In some cases the yacht is overseas or en-route, so until she arrives we have to use client supplied photographs until we can produce our own photography and video.

 

[Pasarell]

I bought my current boat a couple of months ago in the Ionian through a well known broker. Their advertisement was OK with a good amount of information and photos, but also a lot of photos that I would have found relevant missing. Most of the photos were decent quality. Videos were very ordinary but useful to put all the photos in place. Their UK office was pretty good, the Greek one average.
I also looked at a boat that John Rodriguez (above) was advertising. Same price, little bigger and a little older than the one I finally bought. Details and photos were very comprehensive. E-mail response was great but most importantly he spent 40 minutes or so on the phone talking through my requirements and adding his own experience and suggestions. In the end I didn't buy the boat he was selling so he got no income from me but he invested friendly time and effort with impartial advice. No other broker did anything like that.

 

[NealB]

I think if I could have proved that they'd used photos of a different boat, I'd have been after them for my costs incurred in flying out to view the boat. The only thing better than a good weeks holiday is a FREE good weeks holiday

(We too were considering a boat for sale in Lefkas. In the end, we didn't go out there to see her because I decided there was something not quite kosher about the situation - it looked far too good a deal to be true if the boat was as described and pictured and I strongly suspected we'd go to all the expense of going to see her to find she wasn't as advertised)

When challenged, the broker was quite upfront about it.

We couldn't be bothered to push it, so settled on a grovelling apology, plus we insistede that they change the boat details on their web site to make it clear that:

- they had used brochure shots

- the boat was home finished to a not very good standard

- the boat was in need of lots of elbow grease, TLC and quite a bit of 'investment'.

 

[Tranona]

I have seen it claimed here that misrepresentation by a broker is irrelevant because they are not selling anything themselves, just facilitating a private sale by the current owner.

To an extent that is true. Does not excuse the sort of sloppy presentation of sale details described by some here, but to prove misrepresentation you would have to show a loss as a result of claims made about the product. One might argue that there is a cost to visiting boat that was clearly not as described in the particulars, but misrepresentation would normally be as a consequence of buying something based on a description that turns out to be false.


However, with a brokerage boat it is clear from the contract that the boat is as seen, and it is up to the buyer to satisfy himself that the boat is satisfactory for his use.

Not sure brokers (as a class) are any better or worse in their descriptions of boats than vendors or agents selling other types of used equipment such as cars and houses. Clearly some are outstanding, some average, some poor. The reasons for poor descriptions are various - lack of access to the boat to check owner's descriptions, laziness, over reliance on material provided by third parties etc. Not sure there is any deliberate intention to mislead for the most part.

 

[rotrax]

Jonic -John Rodriguez Yachts-worked very hard on our behalf in May of this year.

He advised action from us, we complied, sold the boat.

We did our bit by ensuring the boat was presented as well as it could be, clean, all systems working, fully equiped and with all paperwork available.

It is well to reflect here that when we purchased said vessel six years ago, the Broker made three mistakes with the spelling of my name and got the HIN No. wrong on the BOS.

In love with our new boat we missed these errors that could have caused all sorts of dramas down the line.

Jonic did not. Out of the many Brokers we have used or been in contact with, he is head and shoulders above the rest.

 

[[3889]]

My boat before last was advertised, by a brokerage on a large lake in Northern England, not only with pictures of a different boat but with the, grossly inaccurate, inventory of a different boat.
I've come to learn that brokers who participate proactivly in sailing discussions, such as jwilson and jonic posting on here, are a world apart from those who feel that business will come to them once they have copied and pasted a document onto a website

 

[bitbaltic]

My boat before last was advertised, by a brokerage on a large lake in Northern England, not only with pictures of a different boat but with the, grossly inaccurate, inventory of a different boat.
I've come to learn that brokers who participate proactivly in sailing discussions, such as jwilson and jonic posting on here, are a world apart from those who feel that business will come to them once they have copied and pasted a document onto a website

I also once went to see a boat on a large lake in Northern England advertised by a large brokerage there which was completely misdescribed. Photos on the listing of a beautifully polished hull and smartly presented boat turned out to about three years old and the boat looked like it had been abandoned on a swinging mooring ever since.

 

[jwilson]

My boat before last was advertised, by a brokerage on a large lake in Northern England, not only with pictures of a different boat but with the, grossly inaccurate, inventory of a different boat.
I've come to learn that brokers who participate proactivly in sailing discussions, such as jwilson and jonic posting on here, are a world apart from those who feel that business will come to them once they have copied and pasted a document onto a website

BIG GRUMBLE - usually they copy and paste the EXACT text I have written to describe a design.....

And 40+ years ago I went to view a wooden boat I really liked the look of from the advert and phone call to a then well known Lymington brokerage. Drove there and stayed overnight at Lymington ready for a good look next morning. Broker handed me keys and told me where boat was. Boat green, paint flaking, lots of rot externally and internally - including definite mushrooms below .......

If you call me at Yachtsnet I'll tell you what I know is wrong with any boat we are selling. Also what is good ...... and usually there is quite a lot good.

 

[bitbaltic]

BIG GRUMBLE - usually they copy and paste the EXACT text I have written to describe a design.....

And 40+ years ago I went to view a wooden boat I really liked the look of from the advert and phone call to a then well known Lymington brokerage. Drove there and stayed overnight at Lymington ready for a good look next morning. Broker handed me keys and told me where boat was. Boat green, paint flaking, lots of rot externally and internally - including definite mushrooms below .......

If you call me at Yachtsnet I'll tell you what I know is wrong with any boat we are selling. Also what is good ...... and usually there is quite a lot good.

I frequently see your text unattributed on other brokers sites. Your archive acts as an excellent type repository for all sorts of boats, so many will be familiar with what you have written and the c&p is easy to spot. Must indeed drive you mad.

 

[damsis44]

We have been so frustrated in our search for our next boat by the number of adverts that have blatantly mis-represented the condition of the boat for sale. We have travelled to Pembrokeshire, Emsworth, Plymouth (twice), Marseille and Portugal and found boats that bore little or no resemblance to their advertising photos/blurb. We are not stupid, we asked the right questions of brokers and owners and still felt duped and disappointed. One boat advertised at nearly £100k was probably nearer £50k in value given its condition. The broker agreed with us, but hadn't had that conversation with the owner and it is still advertised with old photos and the inflated price tag.
On a brighter note, the boat we have recently put a deposit on was exactly as it appeared in the photos and as it was described on the brokerage site. Some brokers do get it right, sadly not many of them.