The trouble with harnesses

[Daydream believer]

Wire jacklines are dangerous as they roll underfoot.
Believe me i have tried them
The line forward as suggested would foul my hatch light & a lot of others ould be the same
The one leading aft does not go far enough aft.
I could ( on my boat) still go over the side attached to the lines as you suggest
As all my lines lead aft the jackstay could get confused with a halliard if hooking on at night if it went from the corner of the cabin

But to each his own & if it works for you then go ahead

 

[maby]

...

Now, I offer this notion not as a fully-formed solution, but a 'starter' for discussion and improvement. How about the prospect of an ISAF spec line from about the corner of the coachroof, led forward 'taut' around the base of the mast, then back 'taut' to the other coachroof corner. That would permit one to get forward to the mast and, using a short ( doubled-back? ) personal tether, have enhanced prospect of being retained on board in event of a slip. Another single line secured in a loop around the mast-base and under the first, then led 'taut' to a point in the centre of the foredeck - but just short of any cutter stay tack-point - and used again with a doubled-back tether, would facilitate access to all points on the foredeck. One would clip from one line to the other at the mast.

Is there perhaps some merit in exploring this 'centreline' solution?

Sounds interesting, but I think the applicability would depend on the layout of the boat to a large extent. It would be difficult on our boat because the aft coach roof probably does not have the required strength - all our lines are concealed and run back from the mast through chanels in the coachroof and down to the cockpit. The aft end of the coachroof is removable panels that cover the access channels from the coachroof down to the cockpit level - not particularly designed for strength and I'm not sure they would reliably carry the load of a jackstay with an adult hanging off it. In our case, there is also a lot of relatively delicate cabling round the front of the mast base with glands through to the interior. I would be a bit nervous of the danger of losing my VHF or steaming lights as a result of a safety line catching on these.

 

[Nostrodamus]

I still think the car safety belt has got something to offer the life line. a system that allows you to move but with a jolt such as falling over it locks so preventing you going over the side.

 

[JimC]

Now, I offer this notion not as a fully-formed solution, but a 'starter' for discussion and improvement. How about the prospect of an ISAF spec line from about the corner of the coachroof, led forward 'taut' around the base of the mast, then back 'taut' to the other coachroof corner. That would permit one to get forward to the mast and, using a short ( doubled-back? ) personal tether, have enhanced prospect of being retained on board in event of a slip. Another single line secured in a loop around the mast-base and under the first, then led 'taut' to a point in the centre of the foredeck - but just short of any cutter stay tack-point - and used again with a doubled-back tether, would facilitate access to all points on the foredeck. One would clip from one line to the other at the mast.

I think there's merit in this idea. It makes sense to have the jackstays or wires inboard of the person who is clipped to them to limit how far he can fall and hopefully stop him going over the side. There would be problems for anyone who, like me, carries their rolled-up inflatable on the coachroof though. For me the trickiest part of going forward is getting round the sprayhood i.e. between losing the protection of the cockpit and being able reach the grabrail on the cabin roof. I like the look of the grabrails you can have fitted to a sprayhood that come down the sides like this:
View attachment 32435

 

[Nostrodamus]

My boat has the shrouds quiet inboard meaning the jack stays go to the seaward side of them. This also means that should my wife push me over the side (again) and I am clipped onto the jack stay i have a possibility of sliding down it to the back of the boat where the bathing ladder is. (I would probably get the safety line stuck on a Stanchion top though).
If you have shrouds that are fixed on the outside edge your jack stays presumably go inside the shrouds. This would mean if you fell over at the bow there is no chance of getting to the stern without being caught on the shrouds?

 

[John_Clarke]

I am currently using an adjustable safety line (personal tether) which I made myself. The adjustment is achieved with a prusik knot which can be slid up and down a 10mm tether rope. At the jackstay end the tether rope is tied to a Gibb hook to clip on. The free end of the prusik loop is tied to another Gibb hook which clips to the harness ring on my lifejacket. There is a stopper knot on the end of the tether rope so the prusik knot cannot slip off the end. The prusik loop is tied very short and tight so that it cannot come loose (but can be slid up and down the tether rope). All rope tails are whipped to the standing part to prevent the knots coming undone. A climber has looked at it and thinks it is safe.

Sorry I don’t have a photo of it which would make it much easier to understand.

When slide to the full length of the tether I can work standing at the mast but it can be shortened right up for crawling forward on the foredeck.

For going forward, I am using 5mm stainless 1x19 wire rope jackstays which run from the top of the cockpit coaming just aft of the sprayhood, along the coachroof sides between the saloon windows and the grab rail. They are quite tight so they do not seem to roll under foot where they cross the foredeck. At the centre of the foredeck they terminate with a forked swaged fitting which is attached to a U-bolt (this may also help to stop the wire rotating and rolling under foot).

They pass inside the shrouds so it is much more awkward going forward as one has to make a detour between the shrouds and the mast and also pass under the lazy jib sheet. When standing on the side deck with the tether shortened up I cannot fall outside the guardwires. It gives a very secure feeling. There is no give in the jackstays which is a great advantage and there is no problem of UV degredation.

 

[oldbilbo]

There clearly is a problem with the 'conventional' way we manage being clipped-on when going forward to the mast or foredeck. No one idea will solve the matter for all, but it is worthwhile us trying to 'think out of the box'..... From that may emerge the bones of a better approach.

I'm mulling over how rock climbers, in the event of a fall, remain tethered to the hill by a rope and periodic snaplinks ( or 'protection' ) to limit the length of fall. For most of them, that works.

The wee boat I'm 'furbing has the shrouds and lowers running to the inner edge of the sidedecks, so going forward will ( may? ) involve passing round outside those comforting 7mm wire ropes. Pause for thought, should I be single-handing.... or nearly so.

Let's pick holes in this thought.... I have a spare main halyard, not needed as a boom topping lift. Howsabout me clipping the end of that onto my chest harness and making the other end off on a coachroof cleat so that there's just enough 'taut' to permit me to move forward, but would hold me from dipping into the drink should I lose my footing. A shortened regular tether, used to secure me at the mast or on the foredeck where working, would help keep me in place while the boat danced about. Rather like a trapeze wire on a dinghy.....

????

 

[John_Clarke]

I have a spare main halyard, not needed as a boom topping lift. Howsabout me clipping the end of that onto my chest harness and making the other end off on a coachroof cleat so that there's just enough 'taut' to permit me to move forward, but would hold me from dipping into the drink should I lose my footing. A shortened regular tether, used to secure me at the mast or on the foredeck where working, would help keep me in place while the boat danced about. Rather like a trapeze wire on a dinghy.....

????

I like your creative thinking.

If the halyard is long enough to allow you to work at say a jambed roller furling gear, I wonder if it would keep you out of the water if you fell overboard amidships?

I tried suspending myself by my harness and it quickly became painful and very constricting. This lead me to try using a climber's sit harness on the boat. It work very well as a harness but was a bit awkward over waterproof sailing trousers for having a pee!

 

[JimC]

.... I have a spare main halyard, not needed as a boom topping lift. Howsabout me clipping the end of that onto my chest harness and making the other end off on a coachroof cleat so that there's just enough 'taut' to permit me to move forward, but would hold me from dipping into the drink should I lose my footing. A shortened regular tether, used to secure me at the mast or on the foredeck where working, would help keep me in place while the boat danced about. Rather like a trapeze wire on a dinghy.....

????

The end of your spare halyard that clips onto your harness would have to be brought down to the stern of the boat so that when you clipped onto it you could get forward either side of the boom depending which tack the boat was on.. If it was long enough to do this it might be too long to do its job when you got up to the mast. I see where you're coming from though.

 

[prv]

I have a spare main halyard, not needed as a boom topping lift. Howsabout me clipping the end of that onto my chest harness and making the other end off on a coachroof cleat so that there's just enough 'taut' to permit me to move forward, but would hold me from dipping into the drink should I lose my footing.

There's a lot of stretch in thirty-odd metres of braid-on-braid with a body on the end, so even if we discount the need to move from bow to stern, if you wanted to stay out of the water amidships you'd need a lot of pre-tension which would be uncomfortable.

Maybe slightly more workable with a dyneema halyard or a wire trapeze line.

Good to think outside the "two jackstays along the toe-rails" box though.

EDIT: On second thoughts, the stretch is the least of your problems. In clipping-on weather, you're liable to be heeled well over. So you're actually belayed to a point well outside the deck. This line will do nothing to stop you falling overboard to leeward, in fact if you have any pre-tension in it it's actually pulling you that way. Having fallen in, the line will now go slack (masthead nearer to the water than to the deck) and while it will keep you attached to the boat you will be some distance from the hull. Trying to get back to the boat will be pulling against the way the line wants to take you.

Pete

 

[Nostrodamus]

Let's pick holes in this thought.... I have a spare main halyard, not needed as a boom topping lift. Howsabout me clipping the end of that onto my chest harness and making the other end off on a coachroof cleat so that there's just enough 'taut' to permit me to move forward, but would hold me from dipping into the drink should I lose my footing. A shortened regular tether, used to secure me at the mast or on the foredeck where working, would help keep me in place while the boat danced about. Rather like a trapeze wire on a dinghy.....

????

It was something I thought about but I would be concerned in the even of Jibe or the boom for some reason swinging and pushing the halyard and hence you overboard.
Below is my son on a spare halyard going from one end of the boat to the other. Someone should tell him that he was supposed to stay on the boat though.
View attachment 32462

 

[Nostrodamus]

So thinking outside the box...
The problem seems to be that you need a fairly long life line to reach between your chest and the jackstay which will allow you to work. This also means that should you fall over you may get dragged along in the water at the side of the boat.
Why does the life line have to be attached to the harness. You could have a very short tether between your ankle and the jack stay which means there is not enough line to let you go over.
For mast work it could clip on a strop around the bottom of the mast.
It also wouldn't be in the way of you working.
(now waiting to be shot down)

 

[Daydream believer]

So thinking outside the box...
The problem seems to be that you need a fairly long life line to reach between your chest and the jackstay which will allow you to work. This also means that should you fall over you may get dragged along in the water at the side of the boat.
Why does the life line have to be attached to the harness. You could have a very short tether between your ankle and the jack stay which means there is not enough line to let you go over.
For mast work it could clip on a strop around the bottom of the mast.
It also wouldn't be in the way of you working.
(now waiting to be shot down)

I slipped on the foredeck & went overboard under the guardrail
My boot hooked on a cleat( a bit like your ankle line)
As the boat rose & fell i was ducked & expected my lifejacket to inflate
Getting back through the guardrail took all my effort
An experience i would not want to repeat
I am not sure i would want to be held by the ankle

Re climbing harness
As the holding point is lower on the body is there a chance you would break your back when being towed or at least start spinning round as opposed to just being dragged.
Spinnlock make an excellent harness ( not the mast climbing one) & i have tried one on at a boat show
When offshore & single handed a lifejacket would be of Little use - just delaying death. If it inflated it would just make getting back on more difficult. Expensive bit of kit though

 

[Nostrodamus]

I slipped on the foredeck & went overboard under the guardrail
My boot hooked on a cleat( a bit like your ankle line)
As the boat rose & fell i was ducked & expected my lifejacket to inflate
Getting back through the guardrail took all my effort
An experience i would not want to repeat
I am not sure i would want to be held by the ankle

That is the point though. You got back on and you are here to tell the tale. If you had not been hooked by the boot you may have gone over and been dragged along and never got back on..... so it does work!

 

[Nostrodamus]

Ok, another alternative for when the worst happens.
I have a wireless remote for the auto pilot which I can use to steer the boat, tack etc. If it was totally water proof and had an engine kill switch on it I could use it to stop the boat and at least have a chance of getting back to it!

 

[SamanthaTabs]

Ok, another alternative for when the worst happens.
I have a wireless remote for the auto pilot which I can use to steer the boat, tack etc. If it was totally water proof and had an engine kill switch on it I could use it to stop the boat and at least have a chance of getting back to it!

Appreciate the above but that's written as though you're single handed?? There's 3 of you onboard (unless you've stowed SWMBO and son in a locker to avoid further castration..) always let someone else know what you are doing and they (should) look after you if the splashy thing happens!