The skeg on a Centaur rudder

dylanwinter

dylanwinter

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 Mar 2005
Messages
12,954
Location
Buckingham
www.keepturningleft.co.uk
having owned a newer one - Harmony - with a skeg on the rudder

and Lily M - with a skegless rudder

these are my thoughts

Harmony had a beautiful balance for a twin keeler and I could steer with my eyes closed just by the feel on the rudder - not as good as a sonata, eboat or minstrel but pretty good

the rudder would tend to centre so you could let go for minutes at a time - I could feel how close the boat was to the wind and steer through the waves by feel

Lily M feels like steering through strawberry jam

if you let go for a moment it will flip to one side and stall out under both engine and sail - so the KTL Bungeomatic is an essential tool

you can see where the bow is pointing but there is bugger all feel to it

Centaurs are very good around marinas - they have a very tight turning circle and are predictable in reverse

but with the skegless rudder Lily M is amazingly easy to control under power either forwards or reverse

the result is that I use the tiller pilot more than I hand steer - I let the tiller pilot get on with stirring jam while I trim the sails

i am not sure if the keels on the two boats are the same

so chaps..... if you do buy a centaur buy one with a skeg rather than without

skeg on Harmony

rudder-2.jpg


skegless, as on on Lily M

Westerly-Centaur---The-Mac-004.jpg



D
 
Interesting: the only Centaur I've actually sailed sailed quite well but I was unimpressed with the feel of the helm. 'Stirring jam' is about right. It had the spade rudder - no skeg.
 
jwilson said:
Interesting: the only Centaur I've actually sailed sailed quite well but I was unimpressed with the feel of the helm. 'Stirring jam' is about right. It had the spade rudder - no skeg.
Click to expand...

I am amazed at the difference

both excellent sea boats of course

never been frightened in either of them

I had heard how horrible they were to steer but I was surprised by how good harmony felt

now I know where they got their reputation for being unresponsive - it seems old Laurent Giles recognised the problem and solved it

D
 
Last edited:
Dylan,

when my Dad ( who you met on my boat ashore but probably don't remember among the many ) bought a Centaur after sharing the Anderson, we all found it sailed well - better than people thought in those days - but there was zero ' feel '.

As we are both from a performance aircraft testing background, we tried all sorts of tricks on the rudder like hydrodynamic fences, vortex generators, trim tabs on leading & trailing edges - TBH none really worked, those Centaurs are probably best left to the autopilot.

If it's any compensation my Dart 18 cat was a lot worse, went like a rocket but really lifeless on the helm, just a machine which went where pointed; also I had to keep reminding myself we were going fast as there was none of the spray and sensation of say an Osprey or Fireball - I ditched it after one season.
 
I like a skeg, it gives a certain amount of directional stability as you have found. It also protects the rudder and makes it much more robust. It's more complicated and expensive to build though.
 
The skeg was added not just to improve steering (which of course it did), but to solve the problem of the stock bending after the slightest knock - it is only 1" diameter which is inadequate without lower support. Of course the spade rudder was cheap to make and the hull easier to mould!
 
Tranona said:
The skeg was added not just to improve steering (which of course it did), but to solve the problem of the stock bending after the slightest knock - it is only 1" diameter which is inadequate without lower support. Of course the spade rudder was cheap to make and the hull easier to mould!
Click to expand...

There is no lower support! The rudder stock does not come down through the skeg . It comes through the hull aft of the skeg

and if you do bend one just a tiny bit the top rear corner of the rudder fouls the "fin" above it . Then you cannot steer at all.

Perhaps not something that is likely on a Centaur but with the larger ( deeper ) rudder on the Berwick very easy to do ........ :( Did it once myself ....... owner did it several times and by the look of it now his son has done it since inheriting the boat.


Whenever we moored ( drying mooring on a hard bottom) or anchored where we would dry we were very careful that the rudder was centred and lashed securely so that no permanent bend could be induced if it bounced on the bottom.

Over the years the bottom of the rudder got so badly bashed though that I made and fitted a (grp) shoe on it.
 
I don't know why you keep bashing on about the centaur.
Buy a Macwester 27, they sail as well as the westerly, they have a fully protected prop and rudder with a massive skeg, great 'feel/feedback' through the tiller and they are usually a lot cheaper than the Centaurs.
They also have great solid cast iron keels, ideal for bashing about on skinny water, and I think they feel far roomier inside too.
Capt. RoN
 
Seajet said:
I'd be surprised if the MacWester could sail as well as a Centaur.
Click to expand...
Macwester 27 not too bad, conceivably just a bit faster than a Centaur. Macwester 26 very definitely much slower overall than a Centaur. When both were new the Macwesters were actually more expensive, in 1970 an engineless MW26 was £2,380 or £2,795 with a Stuart Turner petrol engine as the cheapest option whilst a Centaur was £2,545 with a Volvo diesel. Before all the headlinings fell down the Centaurs were much better finished and smarter boats, hence their popularity. In the early 1970s Centaurs were often amongst the biggest (physically) cruising boats around in many small yacht clubs.
 
jwilson said:
Macwester 27 not too bad, conceivably just a bit faster than a Centaur. Macwester 26 very definitely much slower overall than a Centaur. When both were new the Macwesters were actually more expensive, in 1970 an engineless MW26 was £2,380 or £2,795 with a Stuart Turner petrol engine as the cheapest option whilst a Centaur was £2,545 with a Volvo diesel. Before all the headlinings fell down the Centaurs were much better finished and smarter boats, hence their popularity. In the early 1970s Centaurs were often amongst the biggest (physically) cruising boats around in many small yacht clubs.
Click to expand...

I do like the look of the cockpits on Macwesters - those round things on the stern look very comfy
 
jwilson said:
Macwester 27 not too bad, conceivably just a bit faster than a Centaur. Macwester 26 very definitely much slower overall than a Centaur. When both were new the Macwesters were actually more expensive, in 1970 an engineless MW26 was £2,380 or £2,795 with a Stuart Turner petrol engine as the cheapest option whilst a Centaur was £2,545 with a Volvo diesel. Before all the headlinings fell down the Centaurs were much better finished and smarter boats, hence their popularity. In the early 1970s Centaurs were often amongst the biggest (physically) cruising boats around in many small yacht clubs.
Click to expand...

Yes, I was a boy sailing dinghies but perusing all the cruisers and crewing on a chum's Mystic in those days.

There are a couple of Macwesters of various sizes - I think a 27 and a 30ish - at my club; it's the incredibly thick draggy keels, skegs and rudders which make me think a well sailed Centaur would have them for breakfast, but they look solid boats and the 30'ish one has proven pretty seaworthy.
 
Dylan

To get the feel of the later rudder with skeg, all you need to do is add about 15% of the current rudder area in front of the rudder post. What your previous boat had was a semi balanced rudder and this gave the feel. If you added a skeg, then the boat will become more directionally stable.

My advice would be to add the extra area to the rudder and try it. Then if you are not happy then remove a portion of the extra area on the rudder and add a skeg.

When Ed Dubois designed the Fulmar, he tank tested 4 different rudder configurations and the 15% balanced rudder was chosen as the best design. The was confirmed to me by Ed in a telephone call a short while before died.
 
Concerto said:
Dylan

To get the feel of the later rudder with skeg, all you need to do is add about 15% of the current rudder area in front of the rudder post. What your previous boat had was a semi balanced rudder and this gave the feel. If you added a skeg, then the boat will become more directionally stable.

My advice would be to add the extra area to the rudder and try it. Then if you are not happy then remove a portion of the extra area on the rudder and add a skeg.

When Ed Dubois designed the Fulmar, he tank tested 4 different rudder configurations and the 15% balanced rudder was chosen as the best design. The was confirmed to me by Ed in a telephone call a short while before died.
Click to expand...

aha

sail now fettle later

I shall leave the rudder as it is and leave the sailing to the tiller pilot

no boat is forever and I shall bare it in mind for the next one I buy

I was really only offering the information for those who folow in my wake with buying crappy old boats and for those who are convinced that all Centaurs sail badly whereas I now know that not all Centaurs are born equal

D

D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top