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Jamesuk

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1) It must be a joke past coastal skipper level

2) How can a 600 mile passage be sufficent for an ocean master when that passage did not cross an ocean?

3) If a crew (also on YM exam) stops the skipper from an accidental gybe surely that is a fail too? (due to shockingly bad wind awareness)

I would appreciate more banter on this matter.

Where i am coming from?

Aim to get MCA 200/500/OOW 3000 ...... as from my dealings with an RYA centre i HOPE that the MCA centre will be professional.

ps I would also like to say there are some Brilliant Skippers around but i feel it is 50:50 I have learnt a hell of a lot from the good skippers from the bad ones i prefer to imagine them as an MOB.
 
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It must be a joke past coastal skipper level

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Why? Maybe I am out of touch?

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How can a 600 mile passage be sufficent for an ocean master when that passage did not cross an ocean?

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Sounds reasonable at first glance but - To plan for 600Nm in open water is a small vessel is not a lot different to planing for 3600Nm.

Which ocean do you think would qualify, oh, and which route, they are various widths, experience different weather and currents? or what sort of distance, weather and currents do you think would qualify? Oh, and of course time of year too.

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If a crew (also on YM exam) stops the skipper from an accidental gybe surely that is a fail too?

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Did the YM pass? Also, whats the 'also on a YM', what else was on a YM exam? Did I miss something?

Where am I coming from, YM Offshore (a 10 hour grilling at the hands of a JSS examiner back in the dark ages), 3 Trans-Atlantics, 2 the easy way (mate) and 1 West to East (skipper). Oh, and still learning and thinking about my Ocean.
 
I'll give an opinion on 2)
To be able to cross an Ocean is meaningless and could be done on a wide variety of routes and geographically still be a crossing. The RYA had to pick a reasonable passage that would require similar planning, checking and preperation of boat and equipment.

Crossing is the easy bit and also means nothing, the exam is all about the planning and preperation of boat and crew needs, as well as having a very thorough understanding of weather and navigation.

In this respect the four day passage has very similar requirements to a three week one, although the practical use of jury rigs and emergency steering on the 600nm passage will be limited as you will almost certianly be motoring distance from a safe haven.

It sounds like you may not clearly understand what is required of the OYM in the exam and why.

Talk to an examiner and get some more information. The MCA system has more time onboard but the planning is less critical in a larger vessel as your margins for reserves of food / water etc are larger. So there are pros and cons as in most systems.

I've also seen some less than perfect OYM's but when you employ anyone you don't just take the piece of paper as proof of ability.
 
Young man, there's no need to feel down.
I said, young man, pick yourself a course.
I said, young man, 'cause you're learning mode
There's no need to be unhappy.

Young man, there's a place you can go.
I said, young man, when you've got lots of dough.
You can learn there, and I'm sure you will find
Many ways to have a good time.

It's fun to learn with the r-y-a.
It's fun to learn with the r-y-a.

They have everything for you men to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the boys ...

It's fun to learn with the r-y-a.
It's fun to learn with the r-y-a.

You can get yourself cleaned, you be lucky to get a good meal,
You can do whatever you feel ...

Young man, are you listening to me?
I said, young man, what do you want to be?
I said, young man, you can make real your dreams.
But you got to know this one thing!

No man does it all by himself.
I said, young man, put your pride on the shelf,
And just go there, to the r.y.a.
I'm sure they can help you today.

It's fun to learn with the r-y-a.
It's fun to learn with the r-y-a.

Young man, I was once in your shoes.
I said, I knew nothing and was down with the blues.
I felt no man cared if I were alive.
I felt the whole world was so tight ...

That's when someone came up to me,
And said, young man, take a course on a boat.
There's a place called the r.y.a.
They can start you back on your way.

It's fun to learn with the r-y-a.
It's fun to learn with the r-y-a.

They have everything for you men to enjoy,
You can hang out with all the boys ...

RYA ... you'll find it at the RYA.
 
I'm picturing Jimi in an Indian Chief's head-dress....
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But a little more seriously, the OYM fellow has it quite wrong about '600 miles being enough for an Ocean'.

The Ocean assessment is done by one or other of the RYA's most experienced examiners, a very select band, in a 'viva' or Question and Answer session face-to-face. The clue is in the comment that "candidates must be prepared to be questioned on everything in the syllabus", and I take that to mean everything from reef knots and points of sail to sun amplitudes and TRS Dangerous Sectors......

None of those Ocean Examiners I've met suffer fools gladly, and all of them know their stuff backwards. Their task is to make a judgment regarding the candidates' competence and capacity to take and discharge the responsibility without reliance on external assistance. All that goes before - shorebased certificates, first aid and sea survival courses, one or a hundred sunsights, 600 or 6000 miles - is preparatory and complementary to that 'viva' assessment. The examiner then makes a written report to the RYA, with his ( her? ) recommendation.

They can certainly speak for themselves, but one yardstick I heard that some use was 'Would I be content to let a member of my family cross an ocean with this candidate?'

Well, would you....?

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Bilbo:
"judgment regarding the candidates' competence and capacity to take and discharge the responsibility without reliance on external assistance."

On this i really feel that for Ocean at least "where schools are concerned" need to have a recommendation to take the examination from the skipper who was in overall-charge on passage. The opinions on this matter are so strong that a letter to the Times/Telegraph has been spoken of, but of course that is pub Banter.

The problem with all my Banter is that if i quibble i am undermining my Qualifications that i have been awarded... I have said since the "halfway point" that my Target is the New MCA 200 and the RYA YM is the stepping stone to that ST goal.

oops break over cont. banter later.
 
Not quite sure where you are coming from here but as far as I can see the RYA qualifications say what they are on the packet. The OCean YM is purely a navigational matter with the 'normal' YM being the test of boat management. However as many would say they tend to be starting points for gaining experience at different levels rather than accolades of perfect performance.
 
"None of those Ocean Examiners I've met suffer fools gladly, and all of them know their stuff backwards. Their task is to make a judgment regarding the candidates' competence and capacity to take and discharge the responsibility without reliance on external assistance. All that goes before - shorebased certificates, first aid and sea survival courses, one or a hundred sunsights, 600 or 6000 miles - is preparatory and complementary to that 'viva' assessment. The examiner then makes a written report to the RYA, with his ( her? ) recommendation.

They can certainly speak for themselves, but one yardstick I heard that some use was 'Would I be content to let a member of my family cross an ocean with this candidate?'

Well, would you....?"

Does this include candidates from a well known 'zero-hero' training establishment, where the potential 'Ocean Skipper' is never actually 'in charge' of the boat when doing his qualifying passage?

To ask your question "well would you----"?

There is some suspicion, that examiners (YM & YMO) are 'selected' by these establishments, with no more assessments if there is a high 'fail rate'!

This is one of the problems with a 'ticket factory', + a seeming incestuous relationship with the RYA, who seem to ignore it!

On the + side, few of them ever put their credentials into practice.
On the downside, in Antibe for example, they now have a problem with 'Skippers/Captains' not able to handle boats. They have high qualifications, but have simple been bystanders on their path up the ladder to Captain, because they are not allowed to drive a boat in/out of harbour (only the top man on board is allowed by the harbour rules).
They get no opportunity to 'Co-pilot' into harbour like airline pilots in training & last boat handling (apart from a RIB) was on their YM course, years previous.
 
"The OCean YM is purely a navigational matter with the 'normal' YM being the test of boat management."

No so Jimi!
Check the syllabus.

The YMO Course & the YMO examiner, whilst requiring knowledge of navigation (sextant stuff/great circle sailing/etc), put great emphasis on passage planning/weather/victualling/safety/'what-if'/etc. Most YMO examiners, will grill a candidate in depth, to assess if they could actually be capable of being a skipper well offshore & dependant upon their own resources.

While there are similarities, it is well above average YM boat management (or should be), which has a max limit of 150 Nm offshore, so one is never more than a few days from a safe haven (assuming being close to lumpy bits is safer).
 
"1) It must be a joke past coastal skipper level

2) How can a 600 mile passage be sufficent for an ocean master when that passage did not cross an ocean?

3) If a crew (also on YM exam) stops the skipper from an accidental gybe surely that is a fail too? (due to shockingly bad wind awareness)"

You obviously have a tale to tell, how about filling in the details!
 
Ps Would i sail with that person....

Answer: No he is a danger to himself and those around him when onboard a vessel.
 
The whole RYA sllabus is a joke. I get youngster coming to me saying that they have passed Start Sailing Level three and yet they can not sail a triangular course. Commercial organisation seem to hand out certificates like confetti. Standards are not enforced. Just look at the Powerboat Level 2 course. two days and you are qualified to take a powerboat to sea!
 
Well given the fact that you don't need any qualifications at all, surely making the course short should at least ensure that most people do at least get SOME training?
If the entry level training was a week long, how many people who buy a speedboat without any knowledge of the sea would bother?
 
I suspect Alant and I would agree more than we would differ on this topic. However, lest it come back to haunt me, do not interpret my comments as favouring the 'zero to hero' cult, nor even the dumbing-down of standards that we see all around. That's very much a matter for the RYA Emporium and its business plan - and the need to 'sell more courses' to top up the Senior Employees' Pension Fund...

I'm certain that good candidates still come along, who want to learn even more than the syllabus provides. I'm equally certain there are those who just want the bit of paper with a signature on it. So try Ebay..... or certain well-known Solent sea schools who must remain un-named and un-shamed lest the advertising revenue be threatened.

The notion that a handful of mummy's boys can be squired off down into Biscay by some high-charging, high-spending certificate factory, in settled high-pressure weather, and when the seas go down and the breeze calms, they all sit up on deck shooting their ONE required sun sight then compare notes and reductions.... is frankly ridiculous.

The idea that they can be awarded a 'satisfactory' on that element of the syllabus when none of them have ever seen a position line 'run up' or transferred, and have no intention of ever attempting it themselves - never mind keep a conventional DR log and plot over several days to sound landfall.... is frankly ridiculous.

But that is what the RYA - and most of their customers - want. And that is what the YMO Examiners are required to deal with, despite their better judgment. I have it on very good authority that such Examiners are delighted when a candidate presents who has clearly done rather more, and to a higher standard, than the basic syllabus calls for.

Like nav'ing a whole trip - from departure to landfall and pilotage - using only traditional techniques.

So, if *you* want to bring yourself to a higher standard - for the SWTC95 (?) stuff, for example, or just personal satisfaction - then it's up to you and your personal standards.



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James

I like the cut of your jib. Say what you mean - good for you! And don't take any notice of the old farts on here as a recent poll revealed that there's barely a Coastal Skipper amongst us

Good luck with the proper sailing education. You'll go a long way, and any advice you can pass on will be appreciated by us all. You've already got me thinking

Well done
Tom
 
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