The red hot diesel campaign – you vote

I have switched sides on this argument. I had a biggish mobo but had felt increasingly embarrassed by my profligate burning of fossil fuels given the daily discussion of the environmental impact that mankind is having upon the earth. This concer prevented me from enjoying the motor boat so I switched codes to raggie.

Burning huge amounts of low tax fossil fuels for pleasure purposes is unsupportable in my view so I do support the removal of the derogation now. I believe that everyone should do what is necessary to minimise the impact on the planet. All the arguments about boating only being 0.00000001% of the problem is nonsense because if everyone takes that view there is no constraining our use of fossil fuels.

The only way that governments can change behaviour to reduce emmissions is by using taxation (see car tax/congestion charge/road fuel taxation) and therefore yes, the government must change mobo's consumer behaviour using taxation. Cheap diesel is unsupportable.
 
I wish people would stick to one argument on here - it gets confusing!

HOwever if we are going to widen it as far as this [ QUOTE ]
governments can change behaviour to reduce emmissions is by using taxation

[/ QUOTE ] then I fundamentally disagree. Taxation has been illustrated to be a very very poor influencer of individual behaviour time and time again. Where it does work is with corporations and businesses but, as highlighted over and over again UK plc has to compete in the wider world and unilateral decisions would be counter productive.

At 47ppl we are paying amongst the highest prices for marine leisure diesel in the world right now - it strikes me that many responses here are more about banning it's use than derogation or taxation! If so why start with marine diesel - clearly all motor sport and private flying should be banned imeadiately and be closely followed by BBQs (obvious unnecessary use of fossil fuel)...............
 
[ QUOTE ]


At 47ppl we are paying amongst the highest prices for marine leisure diesel in the world right now



[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? 70-100p/litre in Norway (last summer), Denmark (last month), France (last time I looked)

It is true that you can get cheap diesel in the UK and Channel Islands but anywhere else in Europe? Not picking a fight just your statement doesn't tie up with my own experience.
 
But this is nothing to do with UK PLC and it's compettitiveness in the global marketplace. This is about domestic consumption.

And yes I agree that motor sport and private flying should be similarly impacted. I don't know what the situation is with those leisure pursuits - maybe they do not have a derogation?

And there's no point in descending in to talk about BBQ's, that's nonsense.

As for taxation being a very poor influencer of behaviour - well I have some sympathy with that argument; but there are exceptions - The Poll Tax? And what other alternative does the government have; other than dictatorship!
 
>>>
And there's no point in descending in to talk about BBQ's, that's nonsense.
>>>

No it isn't, its reductio ad absudam to illustrate a foolish argument.

Mpg, often quoted. Seach through some of the other posts and you will get mpg figures for fast ferries, aircraft and similar. Moch pof the use of same is for non-essential purposes and, by the standards of the arguments above, should be highly taxed. How much CO2 is generated by the manufacture of a sail? How many racing yachtsmen regard the sail as a consumable?

"On a million quids worth of boat, you can afford some more tax" sounds very politics of jealousy to me, if you have ten grands worth of boat then you probably have an income porportinally lower, with less proportion of disposable/discretionary spend.

Who will sign up on a poll that says "I believe that people should be taxed out of boating because they are too poor to pay artificially high fuel costs"?
 
Andrew,

Most of your response seems not too relate to the points which I raised so I will not answer here. However the point regarding BBQ's, as ridiculous as it sounds (!) does deserve a response.

The point you are making is one of principle; as if in Court. I am trying to be pratical. I'm not a scientist and I've no idea how much Co2 a BBQ produces. However I'd be prepared to wager that it's less than a twin engine high performance mobo produces on a days cruising. This is not an issue that should be treated as point scoring - I believe that we all have a responsibility to do our bit to address the environmental issues. I see it as a problem that is so large that it will only really be solved by everybody on the plant taking responsibility for their own patch. For sure that will never happen in its purest sense but if billions of us started taking that responsibility surely the massed scale of the action would go some way to ease the problem.

You possibly now think that I'm a greeny lefty nutter; well that's not the case but I respect your right to draw your own conclusions. I am simply an individual trying to think what practical things that I can do and influence which might move us all in the right direction.
 
This very forum is confirmation if it were needed that taxation can alter people's behaviour. If the price mechanism couldnt do that, then there would not be the heat that this topic has generated.

The risk, of course, is that the chancellor will be half hearted about it and only introduce enough tax to irritate people without forcing some of them out of the market. Ciggy prices are an illustration of this - many years ago a series of very sharp and high tax increases had a major impact on the number of people smoking in the UK, and had the Treasury accountants worried about future revenue. So in the following years tax increases were moderated, ciggies became relatively more affordable and we have a lot of people smoking.

If the fuel escalator were re-introduced and fuel costs raised to (say) £10 per gallon (inc red diesel) over 5 years then many people would modify their behaviour. So would the boat manufacturers and the car makers.
 
Most of the world's leading scientists seem to support the idea that pumping large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere is not something we can continue to do. If we take this as a starting point (I know there is some debate as to the extent of the damage actually due to CO2, but let's face it, it can't be a good thing to turn all our fossil fuel supplies into CO2 can it?) then clearly the world has to do something about it.

The argument that "boating is such a small proportion of the UK total that it's irrelavent" doesn't wash and here's why.

To make any realistic difference all the major poluters, China, US, India, Russia, western Europe etc have to make serious cuts.
And in world politics it's all about ego and perception. Can you imagine the uproar if this government decided to get serious about car pollution and started either hiking prices up to absurd levels or simply banning cars from the roads on certain days of the week but left the leisure boating alone?
Chappy in his diesel focus doing 60mpg would wonder with some justification why he's being walloped for trying to commute 20 miles when he could do that journey for a month on what some large powerboats drink on a day's pleasure trip?
Simply scale this up. If everyone is seen to be making the sacrifices then the grumbling will be a lot less and something will actually get done!

Now the argument is simply if tax is the best way to limit fuel use. I don't think it is for the very simple reason that it gives the message that if you can afford to then polluting the planet is fine. Which is clearly rubbish. I would prefer some sort of quota system, wherein everyone is allowed to use up to a certain amount of fuel in a year, and it's up to them what they put it in.
But I can't think of a way of doing that without creating an absurd black market.
 
Eloquently put.

Quota system; as you say excellent in principle but flawed in practice. As is always the case those with money will always be able to purchase the supplies that they need - as happened during the war when food rationing existed. The black market provided for those with the cash. There is an interesting parallel between your idea and the Kyoto (I think that's where it came from) Co2 quota trading system whereby polluters can buy Co2 quota from non polluters - it amounts to the regularisation of the black market that would exist if fuel was limited as per your suggestion!
 
2 very sensible posts - huge progress............

if I can try for a 3rd........the most important thing a government could do would be to walk the talk itself; illustrate pain, highlight awareness through their actions - lead don't point.........show us they are serious don't tell us we should be serious.
 
Widening the debate and adding fuel.
A tin tent colleague read this thread over my shoulder.
Heated discussion now in progress here in the office where I'm outnumbered 6-1 by tin tenters.
You can guess their question.
Why should boats have cheap fuel when caravans can't? Both are leisure use.
Answers please.

wish I'd closed my office door when I logged on /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
The writing's been on the wall for years, but many people (including the yards that make these boats and their customers) have chosen to ignore it. It's reality time now, and I suspect it's bad news for owners and makers of these boats. Anyone with the most basic grasp of economics (far less the successful capitalists who own most of these boats) should have seen foreseen this possibility.

I'll admit to a very specific prejudice here. I find big flashy bulbous aggressively styled white plastic motor yachts to be downright offensive in most UK settings, whatever the size of their engines. These boats are an affront to the landscape, they're like putting up two fingers to the rest of the boating community, and if higher fuel prices drive them off the water I'll be glad to see the back of them. OK, we've established that I'm a boating snob - anyone else?

By contrast, a Nelson, a well converted MFV or a nice old Silver can be a handsome addition to have in any harbour - but unfortunately those with big thirsty engines are as unsustainable as the worst taste Magnum Status Superenormous Manhood Enhancing Mafioso Yacht.

However, it's not all bad news - businesses must cut their cloth according to the fiscal climate to survive, so how long before we see much more efficient motor boats of all types and sizes?

Max
 
Very narrow sighted....

The efficiency and economy of road car engines has been achieved through the use of complex computing technology plus various other things like recirculation systems, common rail pressure technology and massively improved tolerances, none of which are comfortable bedfellows with a marine environment.... so in order to achieve the efficiency, we'll end up with engines that should they break down at sea, cannot be repaired, and gone will be the days of owner maintenance.... or engines that are so fragile in terms of rough conditions that no-one will dare go out in a sea state above calm.....
 
[ QUOTE ]
no-one will dare go out in a sea state above calm.....

[/ QUOTE ]
No change there then! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Good post - and I think there's been a lot of quiet smiles over the last couple of days at the idea of the fuel guzzlers losing their bizarre tax break. Would those huge boats with huge engines be so popular or used as much if they paid the same as caravanners do, or diesel car drivers?

I think the raggie vs. stinkie thing is completely overblown in terms of how people get on with each other - in my experience it's normally been very friendly, but a look around any marina shows it's all got a bit out of hand thanks to the combination of a lot more disposable income and the subsidy.
 
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