The NAvy WERE THERE at kidnap of Lynn Rival

[xxyyzz]

RPG's did take down a US Blackhawk in Somalia not that long ago, although the operator wasn't bouncing around in a skiff.

"Equally they may well not have had the missiles you suggest they use"
No, that was a bit tongue in cheek, it's hardly a sea skua situation. I

"not the machine guns"
Does the RN really operate helicopters in what is basically a war zone without the machine guns to go on the mounts?

"(the ship was not there as an enforcer but as a mobile petrol station so that the enforcers could spend longer at sea). "
The ship has actually used it's helicopters and armed personnel to stop pirate attacks before though, are you suggesting they just threatened them with a potato peeler that time?

Face it, the ship is on an anti piracy patrol, and it is armed and they did do naff all.

 

[maxi77]

RPG's did take down a US Blackhawk in Somalia not that long ago, although the operator wasn't bouncing around in a skiff.

"Equally they may well not have had the missiles you suggest they use"
No, that was a bit tongue in cheek, it's hardly a sea skua situation. I

"not the machine guns"
Does the RN really operate helicopters in what is basically a war zone without the machine guns to go on the mounts?

"(the ship was not there as an enforcer but as a mobile petrol station so that the enforcers could spend longer at sea). "
The ship has actually used it's helicopters and armed personnel to stop pirate attacks before though, are you suggesting they just threatened them with a potato peeler that time?

Face it, the ship is on an anti piracy patrol, and it is armed and they did do naff all.

It is not a warship, it does not carry weapons the crew are not trained to operate against pirates. As for fitting machine guns to the helo, one I am not sure if the asw aircraft actually can carry machine guns as there normal targets cannot usually shoot back and maching guns have little effect against submerged targets. Before and after the act of hostage taking are two very different situations and a helicopter operating against pirates before their attack is far safer than after they have taken their hostages. Once the hostages are taken then they are the pirate 'safe conduct' action against them is very likely to result in loss of the life of the hostage.

Rightly or wrongly, and I have already suggested that is a debating point, current policy is not to endanger the hostages.

And at the end of the day an RFA is little more than a glorified petrol station, even if it can assist in the survelance task

 

[xxyyzz]

It is not a warship, it does not carry weapons the crew are not trained to operate against pirates. As for fitting machine guns to the helo, one I am not sure if the asw aircraft actually can carry machine guns as there normal targets cannot usually shoot back and maching guns have little effect against submerged targets.

It does carry weapons, admittedly "only" machine guns, there have been numerous descriptions of it's actual weapons capability in this thread.

The RN's standard merlin fit has 5 machine gun hard points, whether they carry them on anti piracy patrols in some of the most dangerous waters in the world is an unknown, I'll accept it's possible that the pirates were in fact better armed and we're lucky they settled for two old duffers from a yacht rather than one of her majesties finest.

And at the end of the day an RFA is little more than a glorified petrol station, even if it can assist in the survelance task

Yes, but it _actually_has_ acted actively in anti-piracy operations.

From the MOD:-
"The attack broke off before Wave Knight arrived, but the Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship followed the skiff to a fishing dhow, later confirmed to be a pirate 'mother ship'.

Via radio, Wave Knight ordered the dhow to stop and used a Royal Navy armed force protection team as well as the ship's own weapons team to provide cover. The pirate vessel complied. "

It would seem a pretty frigging bizarre thing to do if it was as helpless as you suggest. Note also the references to "a Royal Navy armed force protection team" and "the ship's own weapons team" what were they carrying? Perhaps they improved with something from the ping-pong table?

 

[Searush]

I think this affair is about to reach a conclusion

That's an interesting comment. Do you have anything to support that idea?

 

[Kukri]

Not sure about the point of your post above. Wave Ruler seemed to be there for not much more than observation, which was then wrongly reported by the MOD who initially never mentioned they could see the Chandlers, so we already have some economy with the truth.

You rightly point out the the past admirable anti pirate actions by the Royal Navy and indeed the current robust actions taken by the French Navy. But nothing you say offers any mitigation for the inaction taken by the Royal Navy (It is not the first time this year they have just stood by) and the RFA, many sailors who are ex or serving reservists, not to forget the service personnel also on board.

Seniority is no excuse and I recall a visiting General to Bosnia, accompanied only by his driver, chewing out a Serb warlord in no uncertain terms and then standing his ground until the man and his motley crew withdrew. It is said that small action by an unarmed man saved the lives of a score of Muslim Bosnians., using only his presence and air of authority.

I was explaining my "relaxed liberal view of piracy".

As i said much further up this thread, EUNAVFOR were looking for a mothership in the area, based on the positions of recent attacks (I know this because I was asked for some information to help try to locate the mothership) and I expect that Wave Knight and Cumberland were both part of the search for that mothership.

I'm not sure that we actually know what happened, yet. We have a an account from a jolly jack, which has got into the papers, but his judgment of distance looks very suspect ("fifty feet" - the Wave Knight is well over seven times as long as that...?) and I have not found an account which tells me, clearly, where where the pirates and the Chandlers were when the Wave Knight closed and became aware of the situation.

 

[Saguday]

That's an interesting comment. Do you have anything to support that idea?

Actually, no, wrong guess, it was this Spanish trawler released

 

[grumpy_o_g]

It is not a warship, it does not carry weapons the crew are not trained to operate against pirates. As for fitting machine guns to the helo, one I am not sure if the asw aircraft actually can carry machine guns as there normal targets cannot usually shoot back and maching guns have little effect against submerged targets. Before and after the act of hostage taking are two very different situations and a helicopter operating against pirates before their attack is far safer than after they have taken their hostages. Once the hostages are taken then they are the pirate 'safe conduct' action against them is very likely to result in loss of the life of the hostage.

Rightly or wrongly, and I have already suggested that is a debating point, current policy is not to endanger the hostages.

And at the end of the day an RFA is little more than a glorified petrol station, even if it can assist in the survelance task

There used to be a big sign outside RAF Bruggen in the 70's, beside the public highway right on the Dutch/German border. It said "The task of this station in peacetime is to train for war, and don't you forget it".

The whole idea of having Armed Forces that go softly-softly is a nonsense. The Armed Forces are the big stick that you unleash when all else has failed. It's not there for warnings, it's not there to show how great your country is, it's there to utterly destroy the enemy. An example of what happens when you don't do that is Iraq - they had to go back and do it all again with much less satisfactory results and a pointless loss of life.

The Wave Ruler (what a **** name) is a warship, designed and built to operate in war-zones and if it can't survive a direct hit by an RPG (basically a large commercial firework with a SLIGHTLY more dangerous HE payload) I want my bloody money back. She is armed and carries a complement of RN/RM personnel. I cannot believe that, in this day and age, it was sent to operate in anti-piracy role without the crew getting some training. Unless you're actually fighting the war you're training - that's how the services work. They would have been training all the way out to station at the very least. I don't know if she does have Phalanx fitted but, if she does, they've got a literally awesome weapon that strikes the Fear of God into people.

The Merlin is a pretty big a/c and can mount at least 4 or 5 machine guns and it would be easy to improvise more. The idea of ANY military a/c, vehicle, ship, person or anything not expecting to get shot at is laughable. It's part of the Job Spec. You can either, fight, hide or run away but no-one thinks it's not going to happen. In 12 years of service without any wars at all I was variously shot at, bombed, etc. by lots of different enemies and I was just a Electronics Techie, mostly on fast jets. If you were on choppers you got to see all sorts of things "that didn't happen".

All military personnel except non-combatants (such as medics) are trained and expected to fight, regardless of their job. The primary assumption of any military operation or exercise is that it won't go as planned, and history bears this out. My 12 years of "peacetime" were at the height of the cold war and revolved around that yet I was involved The Troubles, Belize, The Falklands, a Firemen's Strike and lots of other things that weren't officially going on at that time. You improvise, adapt and deliver - it's what defines the job. I wasn't particularly special - there were one or two rotten apples of course but in general that's exactly how the whole of the Army, Navy and RAF thought and worked - the Navy more than anyone else as you've got what's in the boat and that's it - not just to survive on but to kill the other buggars with as well.

I think both the politicians and the scrambled egg (there's increasing less difference) have forgotten what the Armed Forces are there for and it's costing lives and causing a lot of misery. The very idea of occupying and controlling another large country in this day and age is just absurd. No-one has the resources nor the mind-set to do it.

We simply can't afford Armed Forces like that any more and I'm not 100% sure we need them. The future is small fast elite groups capable of getting in and out fast and doing very high profile and painful damage, etc. in intelligence led operations. Expand the SAS and SBS type of operation, taking out key figures, mysterious explosions in buildings, that sort of thing. It's sad but, generally violent people only respect violence. You just have to prove you're better at than them.

At the very most we should have possibly a couple of a/c carriers and a few a/c capable of wielding a big stick but you don't use them unless it's ABSOLUTELY clear your country is being directly threatened. They're not there to help out with other operations - they're used when we really, really do go to war.

 

[Bajansailor]

I have been fascinated by all the different views above as to if the RFA should have gone in with all guns blazing, but I am not going to offer an opinion, as I dont know enough about the subject.

Just thought I would mention the latest hijack attempt - remember the Maersk Alabama, American flag, who was hijacked earlier this year? Seems like the Somali lads decided they couldnt resist having another 'go' at her when they saw her toddling along again in their ocean, so opened up with their weaponry (according to the report in the link below) and they were a bit surprised apparently when the ship fired back.....
Its here at http://www.marinelog.com/DOCS/NEWSMMIX/2009nov00180.html

You have got to hand it to these pirates, they certainly have balls, or maybe they are just rather dim (altho' not as dim as the ones who tried to take on the frigate recently!)

PS - And here is an account of another incident where the pirates were repelled by a 'VPD' on board a Ukrainian cargo ship - http://marinelink.com/Story/ShowStory.aspx?StoryID=217377

 

[Alcyone]

A friend of mine found himself in this situation about three years back. He was with his wife on their yacht, and two other boats travelled in convoy. They were told by the RN to radio them if there was any trouble.

My mate's boat was slower than the other two and he was checked out by what he thinks was a pirate in a fast boat. He radioed in. The other two boats were surrounded by about 5 or 6 gunboats. They radioed as soon as they knew what was happening and the RN vessel sent a helicopter which buzzed the pirates. They then all dissappeared.

My mate is convinced that the RN saved him, and the other two boats from a similar fate.

My point. Doing the above would seem to be well within the remit of the RN in these waters. Once you open fire, it's a different ball game, imo, which could even potentially lead to war.

Clearly something needs to be done, but shooting at people in boats when the hostages are with them, really? Is that sensible?

Another point is that even if the pirates did not know beforehand that the RN will not open fire, if they read this article they know now.

 

[Solitaire]

I am speechless at the spinelessness of our and other western navies. What's the point in putting ships there if they are going to sit there and let the pirates go about their business unhindered?

I have not read all the posts on this thread, but I was on a plane sat next to a guy going out to a dive boat in the Persian Gulf and we got talking. The issue of piracy came up and he laughed....... it's been going on for years! Just that the media have now got hold of it.

 

[Searush]

(snip)
. . they were a bit surprised apparently when the ship fired back.....
Its here at http://www.marinelog.com/DOCS/NEWSMMIX/2009nov00180.html

(snip)

I like the phrase "neutralise the area". It implies a much of what many on here have said should have happened.

 

[maxi77]

There used to be a big sign outside RAF Bruggen in the 70's, beside the public highway right on the Dutch/German border. It said "The task of this station in peacetime is to train for war, and don't you forget it".

The whole idea of having Armed Forces that go softly-softly is a nonsense. The Armed Forces are the big stick that you unleash when all else has failed. It's not there for warnings, it's not there to show how great your country is, it's there to utterly destroy the enemy. An example of what happens when you don't do that is Iraq - they had to go back and do it all again with much less satisfactory results and a pointless loss of life.

The Wave Ruler (what a **** name) is a warship, designed and built to operate in war-zones and if it can't survive a direct hit by an RPG (basically a large commercial firework with a SLIGHTLY more dangerous HE payload) I want my bloody money back. She is armed and carries a complement of RN/RM personnel. I cannot believe that, in this day and age, it was sent to operate in anti-piracy role without the crew getting some training. Unless you're actually fighting the war you're training - that's how the services work. They would have been training all the way out to station at the very least. I don't know if she does have Phalanx fitted but, if she does, they've got a literally awesome weapon that strikes the Fear of God into people.

The Merlin is a pretty big a/c and can mount at least 4 or 5 machine guns and it would be easy to improvise more. The idea of ANY military a/c, vehicle, ship, person or anything not expecting to get shot at is laughable. It's part of the Job Spec. You can either, fight, hide or run away but no-one thinks it's not going to happen. In 12 years of service without any wars at all I was variously shot at, bombed, etc. by lots of different enemies and I was just a Electronics Techie, mostly on fast jets. If you were on choppers you got to see all sorts of things "that didn't happen".

All military personnel except non-combatants (such as medics) are trained and expected to fight, regardless of their job. The primary assumption of any military operation or exercise is that it won't go as planned, and history bears this out. My 12 years of "peacetime" were at the height of the cold war and revolved around that yet I was involved The Troubles, Belize, The Falklands, a Firemen's Strike and lots of other things that weren't officially going on at that time. You improvise, adapt and deliver - it's what defines the job. I wasn't particularly special - there were one or two rotten apples of course but in general that's exactly how the whole of the Army, Navy and RAF thought and worked - the Navy more than anyone else as you've got what's in the boat and that's it - not just to survive on but to kill the other buggars with as well.

I think both the politicians and the scrambled egg (there's increasing less difference) have forgotten what the Armed Forces are there for and it's costing lives and causing a lot of misery. The very idea of occupying and controlling another large country in this day and age is just absurd. No-one has the resources nor the mind-set to do it.

We simply can't afford Armed Forces like that any more and I'm not 100% sure we need them. The future is small fast elite groups capable of getting in and out fast and doing very high profile and painful damage, etc. in intelligence led operations. Expand the SAS and SBS type of operation, taking out key figures, mysterious explosions in buildings, that sort of thing. It's sad but, generally violent people only respect violence. You just have to prove you're better at than them.

At the very most we should have possibly a couple of a/c carriers and a few a/c capable of wielding a big stick but you don't use them unless it's ABSOLUTELY clear your country is being directly threatened. They're not there to help out with other operations - they're used when we really, really do go to war.

She is a Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship, built to commercial standards and operated by a civilian crew. Her primary purpose is the supply of fuel at sea to other ships. Yes there is a small RN contingent on board primarily for the Merlin Helicopter, which is designed for Anti Submarine work. As far as I am aware none of the RN crew were specuialists in hostage release, nor did the ship carry any specialised equipment for use in that role. As the pirates had the hostages in their posesition when the Wave Ruler arrived unless you are happy to see the hostages killed either by our fire or the pirates there was very little she could do to effect their release. Sticking a fe GPMGs or similar on a Merlin does not magic up a specilaist aircraft it gives you a lumbering Merlin that can shoot an unarmed oposition. Equally an RPG round into an avaiation fuel or even a diesel tank will probably spoil your day. Had there been a speciist RM group avaiable perhaps thing may have been different.

To be fair the lack of appropriate resources is not restricted to this circumstance, one hears the story regulalrly from various theatres of operations from all the services.

 

[xxyyzz]

As the pirates had the hostages in their posesition when the Wave Ruler arrived unless you are happy to see the hostages killed either by our fire or the pirates there was very little she could do to effect their release.

From the MOD :-
"RFA Wave Knight helped secure the release of 13 Yemeni fishermen who had been held hostage for a week and thwarted attempts by pirates to take over two tankers in the Gulf of Aden on Saturday 19 April."

"RFA Wave Knight got a second distress call, this time from the Norwegian tanker Front Ardennes. The British ship successfully prevented pirates from boarding the vessel and fired warning shots which caused the attackers to flee. These are thought to be the first shots fired in anger by Royal Navy Reserve personnel at sea since the Falklands War."

Remarkable from an unarmed ship.

Wonder what the commanding officer thinks of his vessels capability, ah, here we are (AGAIN!):-

The Commanding Officer of RFA Wave Knight, Captain Pilling, said:
"Our primary role is refuelling and aviation operations, but we are fully capable of conducting anti-piracy operations in and around the Horn of Africa. We have been on station for over a year providing support to many nations, and we remain committed to helping ensure maritime security."

Will you drop the bull**** "weak and feeble civilians" line, it's self evidently wrong.

The fact that the vessel has acted before suggests that there was something different about this one such that they couldn't act, I suspect the difference was that Yemeni fishermen hostages are more expendable than OAPs.

 

[snowleopard]

From the naval Articles of War which were read to the crew every Sunday...

10 Every flag officer, captain and commander in the fleet, who, upon signal or order of fight, or sight of any ship or ships which it may be his duty to engage, or who, upon likelihood of engagement, shall not make the necessary preparations for fight, and shall not in his own person, and according to his place, encourage the inferior officers and men to fight courageously, shall suffer death, or such other punishment, as from the nature and degree of the offence a court martial shall deem him to deserve; and if any person in the fleet shall treacherously or cowardly yield or cry for quarter, every person so offending, and being convicted thereof by the sentence of a court martial, shall suffer death.

......
12 Every person in the fleet, who through cowardice, negligence, or disaffection, shall in time of action withdraw or keep back, or not come into the fight or engagement, or shall not do his utmost to take or destroy every ship which it shall be his duty to engage, and to assist and relieve all and every of His Majesty's ships, or those of his allies, which it shall be his duty to assist and relieve, every such person so offending, and being convicted thereof by the sentence of a court martial, shall suffer death.

13 Every person in the fleet, who though cowardice, negligence, or disaffection, shall forbear to pursue the chase of any enemy, pirate or rebel, beaten or flying; or shall not relieve or assist a known friend in view to the utmost of his power; being convicted of any such offense by the sentence of a court martial, shall suffer death.

 

[Alcyone]

From the naval Articles of War which were read to the crew every Sunday...

and how long is it since the last time any of these was actually used? When was the last time a navy officer was put to death for cowardice?

The world doesn't work like that any more.

 

[maxi77]

From the MOD :-
"RFA Wave Knight helped secure the release of 13 Yemeni fishermen who had been held hostage for a week and thwarted attempts by pirates to take over two tankers in the Gulf of Aden on Saturday 19 April."

"RFA Wave Knight got a second distress call, this time from the Norwegian tanker Front Ardennes. The British ship successfully prevented pirates from boarding the vessel and fired warning shots which caused the attackers to flee. These are thought to be the first shots fired in anger by Royal Navy Reserve personnel at sea since the Falklands War."

Remarkable from an unarmed ship.

Wonder what the commanding officer thinks of his vessels capability, ah, here we are (AGAIN!):-

The Commanding Officer of RFA Wave Knight, Captain Pilling, said:
"Our primary role is refuelling and aviation operations, but we are fully capable of conducting anti-piracy operations in and around the Horn of Africa. We have been on station for over a year providing support to many nations, and we remain committed to helping ensure maritime security."

Will you drop the bull**** "weak and feeble civilians" line, it's self evidently wrong.

The fact that the vessel has acted before suggests that there was something different about this one such that they couldn't act, I suspect the difference was that Yemeni fishermen hostages are more expendable than OAPs.

As you clearly know far more about this than I do how exactly should the Wave Ruler rescued the two unfortunate hostages without risking their lifes. A simple question which you clearly have a fool proof answer to.

 

[xxyyzz]

As you clearly know far more about this than I do how exactly should the Wave Ruler rescued the two unfortunate hostages without risking their lifes. A simple question which you clearly have a fool proof answer to.

I don't have a foolproof answer, I doubt there is one, but at least I don't keep making statements that contradict the facts.

The commanding officer of the frigging boat also disagrees with you as shown in the quote!

Once more because you're obviously struggling:-

The Commanding Officer of RFA Wave Knight, Captain Pilling, said:
"Our primary role is refuelling and aviation operations, but we are fully capable of conducting anti-piracy operations in and around the Horn of Africa. We have been on station for over a year providing support to many nations, and we remain committed to helping ensure maritime security."

"FULLY CAPABLE" doesn't mean "UNARMED MERCHANTMAN" does it?

 

[maxi77]

I don't have a foolproof answer, I doubt there is one, but at least I don't keep making statements that contradict the facts.

The commanding officer of the frigging boat also disagrees with you as shown in the quote!

Once more because you're obviously struggling:-

The Commanding Officer of RFA Wave Knight, Captain Pilling, said:
"Our primary role is refuelling and aviation operations, but we are fully capable of conducting anti-piracy operations in and around the Horn of Africa. We have been on station for over a year providing support to many nations, and we remain committed to helping ensure maritime security."

"FULLY CAPABLE" doesn't mean "UNARMED MERCHANTMAN" does it?

He clearly didn't disagree because in this instance he did no engage in a rescue mission, which you so clearly believe he should have, come on how?

 

[xxyyzz]

He clearly didn't disagree because in this instance he did no engage in a rescue mission, which you so clearly believe he should have, come on how?

Indeed however they have in the past so your repeated claims that they are unarmed civilians is clearly just wrong.

It was not through the lack of arms that they failed to act.

Will you admit now that you were wrong and in fact the vessel is armed and capable of carrying out anti-piracy operations?

 

[maxi77]

Indeed however they have in the past so your repeated claims that they are unarmed civilians is clearly just wrong.

It was not through the lack of arms that they failed to act.

Will you admit now that you were wrong and in fact the vessel is armed and capable of carrying out anti-piracy operations?

No because I never said that she could not carry out anti piracy activities, what I specifically said that as far as I could see she did not have the correct staff or equipment for hostage activities at this time. Yes she has minor armament, but both the helicopter and ship itself are potentially vulnerable to the weapons used by the pirates. Now you keep claiming she should have acted in this case, kindly explain how this could have been done without specifically endangering the two hostages.

The operating crew of the ship are all merchant navy (some may be ex RN) There is a small RN contingent on board but she is not equipped and a warship and does not fly a white ensign, rather a defaced blue ensign.

"The Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service (RFA) is a civilian manned fleet, owned by the Ministry of Defence. Its main task is to supply warships of the Royal Navy at sea with fuel, food, stores and ammunition which they need to remain operational while away from base. It also provides aviation support for the Royal Navy, together with amphibious support and secure sea transport for Army units and their equipment."