The Guardian on sailing & Olympics

[ylop]

A track bicycle costs about 4 times as much as a laser,

A track bike for the average “club” level cyclist costs far less than a laser. A second hand track bike in good condition costs less than a laser sail!

and there are far fewer velodromes.

You don’t need a velodrome - certainly in Scotland many of the types of race run at the olympics are found on grass at Highland Games. Just like you don’t need a high tech AstroTurf pitch to play football.

Admittedly it’s easier to watch, but rules? That one they start with a little moped is odd, to say the least.

The rules are easily explained. The Kierin is a format that essentially tests your ability to cycle a long way and still have enough power to sprint to win. Perhaps that’s contrived but it’s exactly what made the triathlon and 10K etc more interesting to watch this year than previous games.

And it’s not always the first to finish who is first. Sailing is at least straightforward there.

I’m struggling to recall which bike event isn’t won by the first? The sailing by being a combined result is harder to understand who is winning. Is there still Match Racing in the olympics?

But the whole point of the games is it is a sporting spectacle. Even with drones and augmented reality to try and show in real time what is happening sailing is failing in that regard. It’s not top of my list of sports I’d get rid of, but it’s far from the bottom. There’s a long list of sports that would love to be at the olympics - it feels that sailing might be blocking sports that would make a better spectacle, or needs to seriously consider its format to make it TV and crowd friendly.

To be honest, the far bigger question, argued on the front page of Anarchy today, is whether sailing actually benefits from being in the Olympics...

That’s a really interesting question. It depends how you define benefit. Many Olympic sports (including sailing and cycling!) get so obsessed with Olympic medals that grass routes activity that isn’t directly involved in a path to medals gets ignored. Then if a discipline is ditched or poor performance results in funding cuts they are in a proper mess. Sailing in the UK gets a lot of funding because of the olympics. This is great news if you are an aspiring 12yr old sailing the right type of boat and prepared to join the right race development programme. It’s bad news if you are a sailing club which has a mixed fleet and runs “instruction” rather than “coaching”.

Have you got any evidence to support that assertion? Everything I have seen is that the Olympics raises the profile of all of its sports and results in an increased takeup - albeit less clear how long sustained.

It has been suggested that much of our success in 2024 is a legacy from 2012 when young people were inspired about what was possible*. i don’t know what the impact is on local participation rather than international medals.

*and part of that is not just inspiring young people but also their parents, coaches, teachers, careers advisors etc.

The Guardian at its left wing finest.

you don’t need to make it some sort of political or class divide; the sailing community should be thanking the guardian for highlighting the issue and asking how to address the imbalances and inequalities that make accessing sailing hard throughout the world - otherwise they risk becoming the ridicule sport of the games once Horse Dancing gets evicted! And now that IOC chairman is no longer an ex-Fencer I suspect sword fighting might want to be thinking about its own perception….

 

[johnalison]

May I add most Winter Olympic events to the list of inaccessible sports? Skiing? Yes, plenty of people in Europe go skiing, but how relevant is it to Jamaica or Singapore? So what? Skating? I'd guess that no more people in the UK skate than sail.

I expect the Express to witter on about "millionaire yacht owners", it's the politics of jealousy, at which they excel, but I expect better from the Guardian

I'm not sure about that. Skiing as a holiday pursuit is certainly expensive, though I wouldn't call it elitist. Most of the people skiing in the modest mass-market resorts we visited were blue-collar at best, though there is of course a jet-set aspect as well. As far as I can see just from my own observation, the successful skiers mostly seem to come from artisans growing up in skiing areas, often coming from very physical jobs. The winter Olympics have a long history now, and many events have considerable spectator appeal. I have no interest in skating per se, but I can enjoy watching most of the events, though perhaps not the dancing. I can do without people doing silly things on ski-boards or skis too but I think I've lost that battle.

 

[ylop]

I'm not sure about that. Skiing as a holiday pursuit is certainly expensive, though I wouldn't call it elitist.

Stemar didn't say elitist he said "inaccessible" and referred to the geographic issues. I'm not sure its any more "unfair" that Scandi's and Alpine countries do better in winter sports than Jamaica or Singapore, than it is that Kenya and Ethopia do particularly well in distance running!

Most of the people skiing in the modest mass-market resorts we visited were blue-collar at best,

Wow! That sounds very welcoming and accommodating - nothing could be more elitist than knowing your fellow skiers are judging you on your type of employment. FWIW I think your observation, at least in terms of "brits who go skiing" is probably wrong - its definitely a holiday for the comfortably off. Moreover, because it requires skills and older folk are not great at learning skills that means its a holiday. for people who are comfortably off now, and who's family were comfortably off when they were young enough to learn.

the successful skiers mostly seem to come from artisans growing up in skiing areas, often coming from very physical jobs.

Certainly there's no substitute for time on the slopes and anyone who's been outskied by someone who doesn't even come up to their waste will say the earlier they start the better. That is of course true for most sports.

 

[flaming]

Certainly there's no substitute for time on the slopes and anyone who's been outskied by someone who doesn't even come up to their waste will say the earlier they start the better. That is of course true for most sports.

There's a huge difference between "opportunity to do the sport recreationaly" and "Opportunity for talented individuals to make it all the way to the Olympics."

Often the latter says more about the country and their setup in that sport than it does about the availability of the entry level sport.

For example the Swedish and Norwegians did very well in the Beach Volleyball, but plenty of hot places where it's a popular pastime weren't there...

 

[johnalison]

Stemar didn't say elitist he said "inaccessible" and referred to the geographic issues. I'm not sure its any more "unfair" that Scandi's and Alpine countries do better in winter sports than Jamaica or Singapore, than it is that Kenya and Ethopia do particularly well in distance running!

Wow! That sounds very welcoming and accommodating - nothing could be more elitist than knowing your fellow skiers are judging you on your type of employment. FWIW I think your observation, at least in terms of "brits who go skiing" is probably wrong - its definitely a holiday for the comfortably off. Moreover, because it requires skills and older folk are not great at learning skills that means its a holiday. for people who are comfortably off now, and who's family were comfortably off when they were young enough to learn.

Certainly there's no substitute for time on the slopes and anyone who's been outskied by someone who doesn't even come up to their waste will say the earlier they start the better. That is of course true for most sports.

You have made some odd assumptions there. I have no recollection of enquiring about my package holiday companions' occupations, though it is unlikely that a week in their company would have left my totally unaware, but the nature of the British class system is such that it is not hard to tell the difference between someone from the sticks and one educated at Winchester without having to ask. If you think that skiing is wholly a preserve of the rich you have clearly never been to Sauze d'Oulx or any of the mass-market resorts. There are thousands of mostly young people of modest means to are happy to save for their annual skiing holiday, and this only from Britain, a non-alpine country.

Curiously enough, an early start in skiing is not regarded as essential for success. I believe that the Swiss racing people were happy to take children from around 14 and select the ones who were completely bonkers and turn them into racers.

 

[Sandy]

Sailing​

How many of you own a boat? How many of you could get access to a boat and – checks notes – a sea to sail it in? Of all the many anachronisms at the modern Olympics, sailing is perhaps the most conspicuous of all: a continuing sop to super-rich men who founded the Games and still just really love yachts, basically inaccessible to most of the countries in the world, even the ones with a viable coastline.

But socio-demographics is actually not the biggest issue here. For an event whose defining motif is bringing people together in a place to celebrate sport, sailing is basically extraneous to the whole thing: marooned hundreds of miles away in some well-heeled harbour, basically unwatchable as a spectator sport, liable to be postponed if there is either no wind or too much wind, and with a set of penalty rules indecipherable to all but the most avid boat people, which as we’ve established, you are almost certainly not.

Err, can you repeat that in plain English as I am struggling to understand your post.

 

[Poignard]

It's probably best to read the OP's Guardian extract in context:

Less is more: LA Olympic Games do not need every sport so let’s cut your favourite | Jonathan Liew

 

[capnsensible]

Think of the minorities, surely it's time for 'throw the dwarf'.

For inclusively how about lion taming and mobility scooter jousting?

 

[B27]

I suspect the real issues might be the RYA getting a lot less lottery funding as they've failed to deliver much in the way of medals this time around? If we'd won lots, the media might not be taking the mick.

 

[PlanB]

I buy three papers on different days to try to get a balanced view - Times, Telegraph and Guardian. From time to time I subscribe to the Guardian online for a daily read, and then some daft columnist writes some tosh and I cancel....... till the next time.

 

[flaming]

It's probably best to read the OP's Guardian extract in context:

Less is more: LA Olympic Games do not need every sport so let’s cut your favourite | Jonathan Liew

He outlines a very singular idea of what the Olympics should be.

For me I think the acid test of if a sport should be in the Olympics is if the Olympic Gold is or would be the most important trophy in the sport. So I would not include sports such as Tennis, Football, Golf etc.
When your players/athletes are trying to fit the Olympics into their schedule, instead of spending 4 years building up to it, then the sport shouldn't be in the games.

 

[dgadee]

All over Europe the average age of boat ownership is rising. 10 years in 10 years was what I read last. Not great.

I never bother with the Olympics. All that money on hop, skip & jump? By obsessive people. Why encourage them?

Unless you crew dor someone learning to sail can be quite expensive, I think. I was well taught but have no RYA qualifications. Maybe we need to take more crew out?

 

[Sandy]

It's probably best to read the OP's Guardian extract in context:

Less is more: LA Olympic Games do not need every sport so let’s cut your favourite | Jonathan Liew

Thanks that was useful.

I've not watched the Olympic Games for some decades as they lost their way some time ago.

With the inclusion of 'new sports', e.g. Speed Climbing, as a retired mountaineer that is about as far from rock climbing as you can go!

Oh well, we will have the Winter Olympics soon where the Luge will be far, far away from going down a snowy bank on your mum's best tray...

 

[johnalison]

He outlines a very singular idea of what the Olympics should be.

For me I think the acid test of if a sport should be in the Olympics is if the Olympic Gold is or would be the most important trophy in the sport. So I would not include sports such as Tennis, Football, Golf etc.
When your players/athletes are trying to fit the Olympics into their schedule, instead of spending 4 years building up to it, then the sport shouldn't be in the games.

I agree entirely that sports such as golf where a gold medal means next to nothing should be dropped as it demeans the whole Olympic ethos. It is a bit more complicated when it comes to something like sailing. Although I am not involved with competitive sailing I would guess that within the sport their world champions are the most admired, while gold medallists have something to be strived for but the restriction to one entry per nation takes something from the achievement. However, sailing only really gets public exposure during the Olympics, unlike say golf or tennis, and this is greatly valued too.

 

[capnsensible]

Oh well, it's all over. And, as we read here, very subjective. Trying to please all the posters is never ever gonna happen.

 

[ylop]

You have made some odd assumptions there. I have no recollection of enquiring about my package holiday companions' occupations, though it is unlikely that a week in their company would have left my totally unaware,

Your judgement of “blue collar at best” was at the very least badly worded but the fact you’ve gone on to write this:

but the nature of the British class system is such that it is not hard to tell the difference between someone from the sticks and one educated at Winchester without having to ask.

Tells me a lot more about your stereotypes of “the sticks” than it does about the people you met skiing!

If you think that skiing is wholly a preserve of the rich you have clearly never been to Sauze d'Oulx or any of the mass-market resorts.

I’ve never been to SdO but I have been to quite a few “cheaper” resorts. Not sure if they were mass-market or not.

There are thousands of mostly young people of modest means to are happy to save for their annual skiing holiday, and this only from Britain, a non-alpine country.

I know, I was one of them (although I’ve never been annually). Modest means and skint are vastly different though! You might not think it’s elitist from your high horse looking down, but if you are one of the many people in the UK who’s family depend on benefits/universal credit or even tax credit you probably aren’t in a position to go an annual ski holiday. Even competing in the UK dry slope scene would be tricky for many (kit, entry fees, travel costs). The same is very true of competitive sailing. I’m kind of amazed that people don’t see that - go to a regional topper squad meeting, if your parents can’t afford a motorhome you are already at the disadvantaged end of things.

Curiously enough, an early start in skiing is not regarded as essential for success. I believe that the Swiss racing people were happy to take children from around 14 and select the ones who were completely bonkers and turn them into racers.

So they start turning them into competitors at 14 - but what age did they start skiing at? Its like taking a cyclist or swimmer at 14 and moulding them - you’ve got a very difficult learning curve if they couldn’t cycle or swim before they went to secondary school - you can probably make them good, with a lot of effort, but it will be really difficult to make them great when the competition have been doing it since kindergarten.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Brits polled indicated they could compete at the next olympics if they started training today.

Delusional!

A quarter of Britons think they could qualify for the 2028 Olympics | YouGov

 

[B27]

Brits polled indicated they could compete at the next olympics if they started training today.

Delusional!

A quarter of Britons think they could qualify for the 2028 Olympics | YouGov

There's no need to tell pollsters what you really think.
Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer....

 

[dunedin]

All over Europe the average age of boat ownership is rising. 10 years in 10 years was what I read last. Not great.

I never bother with the Olympics. All that money on hop, skip & jump? By obsessive people. Why encourage them?

Unless you crew dor someone learning to sail can be quite expensive, I think. I was well taught but have no RYA qualifications. Maybe we need to take more crew out?

But your first paragraph - aging sailing community - is precisely the reason why things like Olympic sailing are very important to get some profile and encourage young people to take up sailing.
For young people sailing their own Optimist or Topper is far more fun, and accessible, than sailing on an expensive yacht. Often the boats are club or centre provided for initial learning.
Some aspire to go racing like their hero's. Others are happy messing around at their club. Either way they are the sailors and boat owners of the future - even if many have to give up (or just do occasional charter) in the young family / growing career stage.

 

[flaming]

I agree entirely that sports such as golf where a gold medal means next to nothing should be dropped as it demeans the whole Olympic ethos. It is a bit more complicated when it comes to something like sailing. Although I am not involved with competitive sailing I would guess that within the sport their world champions are the most admired, while gold medallists have something to be strived for but the restriction to one entry per nation takes something from the achievement. However, sailing only really gets public exposure during the Olympics, unlike say golf or tennis, and this is greatly valued too.

I think that sailing is still one of the sports where the Olympic medal is the pinnacle. Certainly in small boat sailing.