The failing Greek economy

pathfinderstu said:
hard from a friend of mine just back from Rhodos, very down at he heel there, town looking unkept, bad attitude in restaurants, not a lot of stuff available from the menu and so on. not looking good there.
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That's pretty normal at this time of year (not the bad attitude) In Oinoussa now nothing is open, all the tavernas remain closed for winter and it looks tatty. In a few weeks time it will be spruced up and the quay will be full of superyachts, judging by past experience.
 
vyv_cox said:
That's pretty normal at this time of year (not the bad attitude) In Oinoussa now nothing is open, all the tavernas remain closed for winter and it looks tatty. In a few weeks time it will be spruced up and the quay will be full of superyachts, judging by past experience.
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Interesting, Agios Nikolaos is bustling already. Though the tavernas at night are still a bit sparely populated, one reason for that is that the hotel owners are moving to fully inclusive deals so their guests don't eat in town much. Typical Greek selfishness really.

We've already had three cruise ships in, they have a record 53 booked this year. Mind you they spend no money in the town either, a cup of coffee by the lake is about their limit.

It's crazy really because the cruise ship and hotel owners are making money but the smaller places in the town (which make the place a popular tourist destination) are still struggling. If things go on this way the town will die as a tourist resort and the cruise ship and hotel owners will then have no customers. But that's the other Greek failing; they never look ahead, they just live in the now.
 
I'm replying to this thread with much trepidation. There are actually two active threads in this forum at present regarding how everything in Greece seems okay to visitors despite the trouble in the news. I have aunts, uncles, and cousins in Greece, and I can tell you that everything is not okay. Two of my aunts are retired civil servants, and have seen their pensions nearly halved. Two of my cousins rely on property rentals for much of their income. Their tenants are unable to pay. Two other cousins work in the financial industry. One has been traveling to China and Pakistan to take consulting jobs. The other has worked a series of temporary jobs in Greece and Cyprus. He formerly was the chief executive of the Greek branch of a large pharmaceutical company. The tourist economy is one of the few areas that might be doing okay. Of course, most of you probably already realize this.
 
I feel very sorry for them, I'm sure it must be hard. I started the thread as a reaction to others posted recently by people influenced by the scenes of rioting and violence shown on UK TV. It was by no means intended to make any sort of statement about the wider aspects of Greek economics nor the difficulties of life for some citizens of that country.
 
interloper said:
I'm replying to this thread with much trepidation. There are actually two active threads in this forum at present regarding how everything in Greece seems okay to visitors despite the trouble in the news. I have aunts, uncles, and cousins in Greece, and I can tell you that everything is not okay. Two of my aunts are retired civil servants, and have seen their pensions nearly halved. Two of my cousins rely on property rentals for much of their income. Their tenants are unable to pay. Two other cousins work in the financial industry. One has been traveling to China and Pakistan to take consulting jobs. The other has worked a series of temporary jobs in Greece and Cyprus. He formerly was the chief executive of the Greek branch of a large pharmaceutical company. The tourist economy is one of the few areas that might be doing okay. Of course, most of you probably already realize this.
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I agree with your sentiments, we have many friends here on Crete who are suffering badly. I think Vyv's original post (confirmed by his latest follow-up) was to show that for all the difficulties Greece is still a safe, pleasant, and fun place to holiday. My first post was in support of that. Tourism is a major industry and even those many Greeks not involved in tourism benefit from the extra taxes paid either directly or indirectly by the tourists.

Greece needs tourists, of that there is no doubt, and I think all of us who spend a large part of our time here need to be doing all we can to encourage people to come to Greece on holiday. Sadly the news media in the UK (and here as well) seems not to care about that and actively seeks out violence and protests so that they can give the impression that this happens everywhere. And it simply doesn't.

Greece gave us civilisation, now they need us to help them to keep it.
 
Tony Cross said:
Interesting, Agios Nikolaos is bustling already. Though the tavernas at night are still a bit sparely populated, one reason for that is that the hotel owners are moving to fully inclusive deals so their guests don't eat in town much. Typical Greek selfishness really.
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Not selfish at all, just good business sense. The more you can supply to existing customers the better your business does. Using your definition, marina dwellers should stop being selfish and eating on their boats or arranging their own barbies and patronise a few restaurants in the town!

Tony Cross said:
We've already had three cruise ships in, they have a record 53 booked this year. Mind you they spend no money in the town either, a cup of coffee by the lake is about their limit.
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Have you talked to anyone in Maris lately? (Maris is the Rolex dealer by the harbour.) Over 80% of their trade comes from cruise ships and a Rolex or a Brietling costs a bit more than a coffee!

Tony Cross said:
It's crazy really because the cruise ship and hotel owners are making money but the smaller places in the town (which make the place a popular tourist destination) are still struggling. If things go on this way the town will die as a tourist resort and the cruise ship and hotel owners will then have no customers. But that's the other Greek failing; they never look ahead, they just live in the now.
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I am not in the least surprised that the tourist shops are struggling, they all sell the same "Made in China" cheap and cheerful rubbish which is available throughout the Med. It is almost impossible to buy anything "Made in Greece" let alone "Made in Crete" apart from honey and herbs!

John
 
Tony Cross said:
I agree with your sentiments, we have many friends here on Crete who are suffering badly. I think Vyv's original post (confirmed by his latest follow-up) was to show that for all the difficulties Greece is still a safe, pleasant, and fun place to holiday. My first post was in support of that. Tourism is a major industry and even those many Greeks not involved in tourism benefit from the extra taxes paid either directly or indirectly by the tourists.

Greece needs tourists, of that there is no doubt, and I think all of us who spend a large part of our time here need to be doing all we can to encourage people to come to Greece on holiday. Sadly the news media in the UK (and here as well) seems not to care about that and actively seeks out violence and protests so that they can give the impression that this happens everywhere. And it simply doesn't.

Greece gave us civilisation, now they need us to help them to keep it.
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+ 1
 
Retired in Crete said:
Not selfish at all, just good business sense. The more you can supply to existing customers the better your business does. Using your definition, marina dwellers should stop being selfish and eating on their boats or arranging their own barbies and patronise a few restaurants in the town!
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No, it's not good business sense to maximise your income by destroying the very thing that brings in your customers. When there are no tourist bars, tavernas and shops in the town who will come here? And what will the big hotels do then? Will the cruise ships still come to a dead town?

And a minutes thought would have revealed the flaw in the second part of your argument here. Yes, many of us do cook and eat on board but where do you imagine we buy the food? Exactly, in the town. The gas we use to cook with comes from the local town gas shop, even the 220v electricity and the water we consume is supplied by Greek companies. A couple of years ago we did a survey of the winter boats here and worked out that, in addition to the mooring fees (which also go to the town) each boat spends on average €1000 per month on food, eating out, clothes, sundries, fuel, car/bike hire etc. etc. Far from being selfish the marina is a major factor keeping the town running, especially in the winter when there are no tourists.

Have you talked to anyone in Maris lately? (Maris is the Rolex dealer by the harbour.) Over 80% of their trade comes from cruise ships and a Rolex or a Brietling costs a bit more than a coffee!
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Fair enough you've mentioned one jewellery shop that you say does well from the cruise ships. Now go and count how many coffee shops, bars and tavernas there are in the town and ask them if they think cruise ship passengers are big spenders. We know several and it's a big bone of contention with them, as it is with the fully inclusive hotels

I am not in the least surprised that the tourist shops are struggling, they all sell the same "Made in China" cheap and cheerful rubbish which is available throughout the Med. It is almost impossible to buy anything "Made in Greece" let alone "Made in Crete" apart from honey and herbs!
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I think you'll find the tourists shops sell the sort of tat that the tourists want to buy, otherwise they wouldn't all be trying to sell the same stuff. Regardless of where it's made it raises taxes that the country badly needs. On top of the fully inclusive and cruise ship problem, many tourists are from countries with austerity issues themselves (including the UK) which is another reason they're not spending. That's why you're seeing an explosion in the number of shops, bars and tavernas advertising themselves in Russian, they're the ones with the money now.
 
The manager of a taverna in Levkas that we have used for a few years now declined my card last September. He explained that it was taking 8 or 9 weeks for the credit to come through. He showed me bank statements that proved this. He had contacted the various card firms who said that they were processing as normal - 2 or 3 days was usual.
It turned out that the banks were hanging on to the money.
Not being able to afford the overdraft fees - run in parallel with the above scam (!) he said 'sorry - cash only' not unreasonably.

I would expect everyone to deal in cash if that's the way banks treat them.
 
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Tony Cross said:
And a minutes thought would have revealed the flaw in the second part of your argument here. Yes, many of us do cook and eat on board but where do you imagine we buy the food? Exactly, in the town. The gas we use to cook with comes from the local town gas shop, even the 220v electricity and the water we consume is supplied by Greek companies. A couple of years ago we did a survey of the winter boats here and worked out that, in addition to the mooring fees (which also go to the town) each boat spends on average €1000 per month on food, eating out, clothes, sundries, fuel, car/bike hire etc. etc. Far from being selfish the marina is a major factor keeping the town running, especially in the winter when there are no tourists.
.
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The owner of the thriving car hire business in Lakki told me quite openly that they were on the verge of going bust when Leros Marina opened. Eating in a taverna towards the end of last season the owner told us that no Greeks had eaten there for more than a month, only yachties. The delicatessen and the grocery shop see a steady stream of yacht owners through their doors all season.
 
Tony Cross said:
No, it's not good business sense to maximise your income by destroying the very thing that brings in your customers. When there are no tourist bars, tavernas and shops in the town who will come here? And what will the big hotels do then? Will the cruise ships still come to a dead town?
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As you say that cruise ship passengers spend no money will the town miss them if the ships don’t come? Walk around the harbour any evening and the bars and coffee houses are full of locals. The tourists may not be spending but the residents and the younger local still socialise over a drink or a coffee and they do this 12 months of the year.

Tony Cross said:
Far from being selfish the marina is a major factor keeping the town running, especially in the winter when there are no tourists. .
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The marina does make a profit (so I am told) but the majority of this is paid to the government who actually own it. As for the marina being a major factor in keeping the town running in the winter this is plainly nonsense. Agios Nikolaos has a population of 27,000 (2011 figs). I would guess (correct me if I am wrong) that maybe 50 boats overwinter in the marina so say 100 people contribute to the local economy which makes them 0.37% of the population. Hardly a major factor! Sorry but those who live here, pay income tax, property tax, local rates and all the other taxes being dreamt up here, as well as buying property, furnishing it and buying everything else here in order to live are the ones who keep the town alive in the winter. OK, I agree you do pay your bit, but yours is a very minor factor.

John
 
Retired in Crete said:
The marina does make a profit (so I am told) but the majority of this is paid to the government who actually own it. As for the marina being a major factor in keeping the town running in the winter this is plainly nonsense. Agios Nikolaos has a population of 27,000 (2011 figs). I would guess (correct me if I am wrong) that maybe 50 boats overwinter in the marina so say 100 people contribute to the local economy which makes them 0.37% of the population. Hardly a major factor! Sorry but those who live here, pay income tax, property tax, local rates and all the other taxes being dreamt up here, as well as buying property, furnishing it and buying everything else here in order to live are the ones who keep the town alive in the winter. OK, I agree you do pay your bit, but yours is a very minor factor.
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I'm glad you think that an income of €300000 (50 boats, €1000 per boat for 6 months) is a very minor factor. And that's in addition to our mooring fees remember, which do not all go to Athens. The marina is leased by the town from the Greek state.

The near panic in the DEMOS when the list of 23 marinas that are for sale was announced wasn't because they like having a marina here, it was because the marina is a major source of income for the town.
 
Retired in Crete said:
Tony, I personally have spent more than double this amount in the Agios Nikolaos area in the 8 years I have lived here. As I say a minor factor in the overall local economy.

John
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Then you'd best speak to the mayor because you clearly know more about the finances of the town and the relative position of the marina in those finances than he does.
 
Tony,
Please stop changing the subject.
We were talking about the local economy. i.e the total spend in the town and the percentage spent by marina folk and not simply about the mayors budget! Two entirely different things.
Of course the mayor does not want to lose the marina, what politician ever wanted to lose control of anything, let alone one of the few things that can augment his budget.
The marina may be important to the mayors budget, but his spend is only a small part of the local economy.

John
 
Mytilini's archeological museum is the only 'must see' in the town, according to the Rough Guide. It was shut the entire week we were there - due to 'lack of security' according to a paper sign in Greek on the gate. We were not the only foreigners milling about outside wondering what the sign said and when it would open.

In our experience this is fairly typical. If they randomly close the museums and ancient sites then it will discourage tourists they say they want to continue coming.

On our last day there, Friday, the gate was open - but the museum was still shut. There was a lady inside - she was keen to get us out and lock the gate again; open tomorrow she said, and free! We pointed out to her that an English sign on the gate saying that would have saved us several wasted visits. She said, in adequate English, that she'd often asked 'them' to make one!

What is it about the staff in Greek museums? Who employs them?

(The castle was open, BTW, but don't follow the direction signs or you won't find the entrance.)
 
Boat owners are also a source of hidden revenue which they cannot demonstrate any credit. They are the visitors that many boat owners get from relatives, friends, etc for a week or more. I know one boat that had six sets of visitors during last summer. Poor sods were run ragged and looking forward to hauling out. Spent loads of money in cafes cos they were fed up cooking for guests.
 
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC said:
......, and houses now worth 1/3 to 1/5 to what they used to worth a few years ago.

However, the Greek economy will bottom late this summer, and will start increasing slightly in 2014 ........
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That sounds very much like what Spanish estate agents have been saying for the past 3 years, prices are still tumbling :)
 
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