The end of owner maintenance ...

[Seajet]

Thank you. Exactly. This is the thin end of a very long, very wide, wedge, being driven into our sport.

Having dealt with some of these Coastguard - and onshore RNLI types, let's not forget making very good highly pensionable jobs out of not knowing or doing anything much but spouting bullshit -and police ' professionals ' with a fraction of the road experience most us have on here delighting in exercising their powers closing off roads for many hours after the slightest accident - I agree with Minn, we should be concerned.

 

[PhillM]

I wonder if this thread is missing the point, this wording appears to be:

Unless trained and/or qualified to do so, safety critical maintenance should not be carried out by the owner/managing agent or skipper.

So we just have to get trained. I have RYA Diesel Engine course - i would therefore claim that I am qualified to service my engine.

I’m sure the RYA will oblige with a range of courses to enable us to learn to be trained to do any of the jobs that are “safety critical”, unless such training were so complex that we really do need a qualified professional, e.g surveyer.

Perhaps there will be RYA Rigger, RYA small boat electrician (12v) and (240v) versions? Or RYA boat safety check course - how to setup your safety equipment - or this may be deemed to have been part of DaySkiper?

As for fitting a new prop, reefing gear etc, in order to keep selling the kit, I am sure that the manufacturers will offer a “checking service” using their own qualified professionals.

 

[Wansworth]

..........and they came for the humble boat owner and there was no one to help him.

 

[halcyon]

I wonder if this thread is missing the point, this wording appears to be:
safety equipment - or this may be deemed to have been part of DaySkiper?

Unless trained and/or qualified to do so, safety critical maintenance should not be carried out by the owner/managing agent or skipper.

So we just have to get trained. I have RYA Diesel Engine course - i would therefore claim that I am qualified to service my engine.

I’m sure the RYA will oblige with a range of courses to enable us to learn to be trained to do any of the jobs that are “safety critical”, unless such training were so complex that we really do need a qualified professional, e.g surveyer.

Perhaps there will be RYA Rigger, RYA small boat electrician (12v) and (240v) versions? Or RYA boat safety check course - how to setup your
As for fitting a new prop, reefing gear etc, in order to keep selling the kit, I am sure that the manufacturers will offer a “checking service” using their own qualified professionals.

Depends how across the the board safety critical product / public liability insurance exemptions are.

Brian

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Is their any indication of a size limit this stuff may apply to? Does it include canoes, surf boards, paddle boards, wind surfers, kite surfers & dinghies? What about inland water boats, i.e. canal boats? If it applies to dinghies too it could stuff up development classes like the International Moth.

 

[NOHOH]

There is, in Italy, a marina which permits no owner maintenance...and does not allow owners to spend time on their boats when they are ashore and being worked on (or ignored). by the yard. Four different chandleries have opened up in the marina and then closed down again fairly soon afterwards....basically...through lack of business. Very few Italian boats sail from there.
If the proposed scheme goes ahead here expect ...among other things...the virtual end of the secondhand boat market, a significant reduction in the number and quality of chandleries, and no "practical" boat owner magazines or books. I only hope a scrappage scheme for vessels `beyond economic repair and maintenance by professionals` will be introduced (my boat is 45 years old) for owners who can afford to and know how to do the work themselves but not pay for others to do it for them. The yacht clubs will die, a good few people will start to lose their livelihoods after a brief `flourish` of seemingly better , busier times........and the world will become a poorer place to live, inhabited , in sailing terms, by fewer but quite rich people...who really don`t have much idea of what a boat really is. After all...whoever imagined that there would NOT be a London Boat Show?

 

[RobF]

That statement and the condescending remarks by the self-styled "capnsensible" have encouraged me to go back to the original documentation and study it again, to see whether perhaps RobF is right about this.

I don't think he is....

That is a reasonable and objective response to my post and is in contrast to some of the other posts in this thread - which present to me as being scaremongering, non-sequiturs or conjecture.

It would appear that a number of people are reading the MGNs (pretty thoroughly) and coming to different conclusions. It therefore seems to me that the MGNs would benefit from being clarified. A number of people have cited the phrase

Unless trained and/or qualified to do so, safety critical maintenance should not be carried out by the owner / managing agent or skipper. As an example, gas systems on board a vessel should always be serviced and maintained by a qualified professional such as a Marine level GasSafe inspector (or equivalent).

However, there are no examples provided of systems which are deemed to be appropriate for owner maintenance (e.g. changing engine impellers or fuel filters - which I suspect most of us on this forum would tackle without problem).

As a result, I have responded to the MCA (via the email address provided in the consultation template) asking for clarification on the scope of safety critical maintenance, to increase clarity on what is deemed to be safety critical and provide further examples of what can and cannot be 'owner maintained''. I have also asked them whether they could confirm their strategic intent for these MGNs (i.e. is their any intention to increase legislation on the types of maintenance which can be undertaken by owners of leisure vessels, or are the MGNs solely to reiterate best practice and common sense).

 

[Kukri]

There is, in Italy, a marina which permits no owner maintenance...and does not allow owners to spend time on their boats when they are ashore and being worked on (or ignored). by the yard. Four different chandleries have opened up in the marina and then closed down again fairly soon afterwards....basically...through lack of business. Very few Italian boats sail from there.
If the proposed scheme goes ahead here expect ...among other things...the virtual end of the secondhand boat market, a significant reduction in the number and quality of chandleries, and no "practical" boat owner magazines or books. I only hope a scrappage scheme for vessels `beyond economic repair and maintenance by professionals` will be introduced (my boat is 45 years old) for owners who can afford to and know how to do the work themselves but not pay for others to do it for them. The yacht clubs will die, a good few people will start to lose their livelihoods after a brief `flourish` of seemingly better , busier times........and the world will become a poorer place to live, inhabited , in sailing terms, by fewer but quite rich people...who really don`t have much idea of what a boat really is. After all...whoever imagined that there would NOT be a London Boat Show?

Well said!

 

[halcyon]

As a result, I have responded to the MCA (via the email address provided in the consultation template) asking for clarification on the scope of safety critical maintenance, to increase clarity on what is deemed to be safety critical and provide further examples of what can and cannot be 'owner maintained''. I have also asked them whether they could confirm their strategic intent for these MGNs (i.e. is their any intention to increase legislation on the types of maintenance which can be undertaken by owners of leisure vessels, or are the MGNs solely to reiterate best practice and common sense).

J await the response, as the commercial insurance firms have already started adding no cover for marine safety critical work.

Brian

 

[rszemeti]

I’m sure the RYA will oblige with a range of courses to enable us to learn to be trained to do any of the jobs that are “safety critical”, unless such training were so complex that we really do need a qualified professional, e.g surveyer.

I am sure they will! However, as an experienced electronic and mechanical engineer, ex-motorcycle racer and pilot, I don't need a course from the RYA on electrics or engines, thank's all the same. How long before they start offering a "Qualified Antifoul Painters Course"??

The addition of the words "Unless trained, qualified or otherwise competent to do so." would work fine for me, as I am more than capable of demonstrating my competence to carry out the tasks I do on my vessel, and leave the ones I am not competent to do to others. This is inline with other legislation, and woudl solve most of my concerns.

 

[Wansworth]

There is, in Italy, a marina which permits no owner maintenance...and does not allow owners to spend time on their boats when they are ashore and being worked on (or ignored). by the yard. Four different chandleries have opened up in the marina and then closed down again fairly soon afterwards....basically...through lack of business. Very few Italian boats sail from there.
If the proposed scheme goes ahead here expect ...among other things...the virtual end of the secondhand boat market, a significant reduction in the number and quality of chandleries, and no "practical" boat owner magazines or books. I only hope a scrappage scheme for vessels `beyond economic repair and maintenance by professionals` will be introduced (my boat is 45 years old) for owners who can afford to and know how to do the work themselves but not pay for others to do it for them. The yacht clubs will die, a good few people will start to lose their livelihoods after a brief `flourish` of seemingly better , busier times........and the world will become a poorer place to live, inhabited , in sailing terms, by fewer but quite rich people...who really don`t have much idea of what a boat really is. After all...whoever imagined that there would NOT be a London Boat Show?

.......are you my wife!....

 

[Wansworth]

So my junk rigged 22 footer with sculling oar as motive power and or very small outboard would call for me to have a specialist check the out board and I would require a specialist to survey the hull and rig assuming I can be left to judge if a frayed rope needs replacing or the sculling oar leather looks a bit worn.......

 

[Robert Wilson]

I am sure they will! However, as an experienced electronic and mechanical engineer, ex-motorcycle racer and pilot, I don't need a course from the RYA on electrics or engines, thank's all the same. How long before they start offering a "Qualified Antifoul Painters Course"??

The addition of the words "Unless trained, qualified or otherwise competent to do so." would work fine for me, as I am more than capable of demonstrating my competence to carry out the tasks I do on my vessel, and leave the ones I am not competent to do to others. This is inline with other legislation, and woudl solve most of my concerns.

And then long before the fat end of the wedge is reached NO-ONE without hell knows how many "certificated qualifications" will be even allowed to take a boat on the water - or even on a trailer to the water.

I may be doom-mongering, but I foresee a huge black cloud approaching fast towards our much cherished and enjoyed "freedom to go out in a boat" when we want, where we want and with whom we want.

 

[Kukri]

And then long before the fat end of the wedge is reached NO-ONE without hell knows how many "certificated qualifications" will be even allowed to take a boat on the water - or even on a trailer to the water.

I may be doom-mongering, but I foresee a huge black cloud approaching fast towards our much cherished and enjoyed "freedom to go out in a boat" when we want, where we want and with whom we want.

+1. Even if we are doom mongering, surely the precautionary principle requires that we put a stop to this nonsense now?

It will save no lives, it will offer no new advice (these pages are full of good advice freely given!) and it is not needed.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

...... It will save no lives, it will offer no new advice ......

I think it could because there have been fatalities caused by carbon monoxide and gas installations modified by owners which could been prevented if professionals had performed the work, for example.

 

[halcyon]

So my junk rigged 22 footer with sculling oar as motive power and or very small outboard would call for me to have a specialist check the out board and I would require a specialist to survey the hull and rig assuming I can be left to judge if a frayed rope needs replacing or the sculling oar leather looks a bit worn.......

It's now come, or becoming, a liability issue, the MCA must stand up it Court now and show they did all possible to avoid the next fatality and it was the skipper/owner's fault. The insurance have to cover their backsides for liabilities with exclusion clauses, are the RYA going to stand up in Court and say we trained the owner to do safety critical repair ? If the insurance include exclusion clauses will you be able to get a qualified engineer to do your repair/survey ?

We are heading down the road of accountability in Court, not safety for boating.

Brian

 

[Robert Wilson]

I think it could because there have been fatalities caused by carbon monoxide and gas installations modified by owners which could been prevented if professionals had performed the work, for example.

That's a good point and one hard to argue against.
But are we to be totally controlled in everything we do? Walking in the Highlands and cities have elements of danger (of getting-lost, injury and death), driving or being driven in a car likewise viz. the recent spate of cars bursting into flames.
I accept that in a perfect world all risk and danger would be eradicated - but we do not inhabit a perfect world.
When the risk-to-event ratio is considered, surely our sailing/motor-boating fraternity are really rather good at keeping ourselves afloat and safe?
I return to my first post - there is no way I would consider re-rigging Khamsin without the involvement of a qualified and competent rigger and I'd be delighted to assist him thereby learning a bit about the process hopefully to enable me to effect emergency repairs "at sea".

It is all too easy for "the authorities" to legislate against the "soft options of this world" while appearing to little or nothing about some bigger, nastier situations. e.g. knife crime, plastic pollution, cyber attacks to name but three.

If these proposals are introduced and mandated then not only will I be forced to give up sailing but as posted somewhere above, I won't be able to even "get rid of my boat" because firstly the market will have collapsed and secondly I'd be in jail for cutting-up the old girl with a chainsaw.

 

[Robert Wilson]

It's now come, or becoming, a liability issue, the MCA must stand up it Court now and show they did all possible to avoid the next fatality and it was the skipper/owner's fault. The insurance have to cover their backsides for liabilities with exclusion clauses, are the RYA going to stand up in Court and say we trained the owner to do safety critical repair ? If the insurance include exclusion clauses will you be able to get a qualified engineer to do your repair/survey ?

We are heading down the road of accountability in Court, not safety for boating.

Brian

+1000 and a very real likelihood if the MCA get these regulations into law.

 

[fisherman]

Just to play devil's apricot, do any of you recall huffing and puffing about the Captains Calamity who tried to sail from Scandinavia to the US in 2016, ended up in Hayle where the boat fell away from the quay and 'caught fire' (just a small charring of curtains when the candle fell over). They were rescued nine times....these are the guys who get you a bad name, and attract the attention of the MCA.
While searching for it I found this one
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...unded-!&highlight=captain+calamity+hayle+nora

there are others. It seems a tipping point is reached when people on here agree someone needs to be stopped, so the question is, where to set that point? The MCA proposal is a sledgehammer response to a few nuts, pun intended.

 

[maby]

...

But are we to be totally controlled in everything we do? Walking in the Highlands and cities have elements of danger (of getting-lost, injury and death), driving or being driven in a car likewise viz. the recent spate of cars bursting into flames.
I accept that in a perfect world all risk and danger would be eradicated - but we do not inhabit a perfect world.
When the risk-to-event ratio is considered, surely our sailing/motor-boating fraternity are really rather good at keeping ourselves afloat and safe?
....

I guess you could take the view that the difference between these activities and boating is that responding to accidents on the road or hill walking in the Highlands does not cost the emergency services very much money or put the rescue teams in significant danger whereas responding to an emergency at sea will often be an expensive exercise and may require lifeboat crews to take significant risks.