The end of owner maintenance ...

fisherman said:
Don't rely on there being any consistency or common sense from the MCA. I sold a boat with MCA cert, which has to be renewed at point of sale. The boat had only done a sea trial for an hour and 26 hour delivery trip, took three weeks to get through the cert. I argued a point with one inspector, in the end he said in exasperation "Look, we're in the dark as badly as you are" and I hear he quit the job over it.
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An MCA surveyor failed one of my ships for having a printed copy of a .pdf of an original MCA certificate on board not the original. The document itself states that the vessel is insured on respect of the owner’s responsibilities under the Nairobi Convention (never mind...) The P&I Club document against which the original MCA certificate is issued only exists as a .pdf... The MCA hierarchy agree with me that insisting on an original is silly, but, they say, the Chinese insist on ships carrying originals... The survey took place in a port that the ship regularly calls at with no issues. It’s known as Shanghai...
 
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Minn said:
An MCA surveyor failed one of my ships for having a printed copy of a .pdf of an original MCA certificate on board not the original. The document itself states that the vessel is insured on respect of the owner’s responsibilities under the Nairobi Convention (never mind...) The P&I Club document against which the original MCA certificate is issued only exists as a .pdf... The MCA hierarchy agree with me that insisting on an original is silly, but, they say, the Chinese insist on ships carrying originals... The survey took place in a port that the ship regularly calls at with no issues. It’s known as Shanghai...
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The Portuguese also require originals and if owner has laminated them, they can be rejected.
 
Minn said:
Equally daft, but I take it you mean ‘they really do’ as opposed to ‘the MCA say they do!’

What do the Portuguese make of a British Certificate of Registry, which comes laminated from the Registry in Cardiff?
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It's been some time since we sailed there but we never had a problem .
 
I am told by a fairly senior sort of bird in the MCA that the decision to stop laminating Certificates of Registry was the one and only contribution made by Doug Barrow during his short stint as head of the Register.

Meandering gently back to the topic, I’d advise anyone who thinks getting the MCA involved in any of this to flick through a copy of the current edition of the Code of Safe Working Practices For Merchant Seamen.
 
mainsail1 said:
That is your opinion. I may have the last laugh when you are heavily fined for some infringement of the advice that then became a regulation. Many of us have seen the step by step erosion of freedom in the name of safety. It is what governments and their servants do. It keeps them in a job and makes our lives more difficult for no good reason.
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You won't because I won't. A whole bunch of you guys are flapping over nothing, it's for commercial boats. An addition to rules that people like me have been using for decades.

Trite nonsense about civil service doesn't cut it either, and perhaps for Minns attention, the MCA have been scrutinising yachts for decades too, it's no recent thing.

Look at the links!
 
capnsensible said:
You won't because I won't. A whole bunch of you guys are flapping over nothing, it's for commercial boats. An addition to rules that people like me have been using for decades.

Trite nonsense about civil service doesn't cut it either, and perhaps for Minns attention, the MCA have been scrutinising yachts for decades too, it's no recent thing.

Look at the links!
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I have absolutely no idea what you have just said.
 
capnsensible said:
You won't because I won't. A whole bunch of you guys are flapping over nothing, it's for commercial boats. An addition to rules that people like me have been using for decades.

Trite nonsense about civil service doesn't cut it either, and perhaps for Minns attention, the MCA have been scrutinising yachts for decades too, it's no recent thing.

Look at the links!
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May I respectfully suggest that rather than just looking at the links, you ACTUALLY READ THEM.

Let me help you:


This consultation seeks your views on 6 draft Marine Guidance Notes (MGNs). The main reason for the intervention is to reinforce to owners, managing agents and skippers what is good practice in terms of safety when going out to sea. This is to reduce the risk of any accidents occurring as a result of not following the most acceptable standards of safety required. Another reason for the intervention is to ensure that guidance on safety is applied equally to those who fall within a regulatory framework and to those that fall outside it. This will ensure that as many stakeholders as possible are aware of what practices they need to put in place to meet the acceptable level of safety. The guidance contained within this suite of MGNs is not looking to amend or change the text of the applicable regulations, but rather provide further detail on the intent of the regulation.

Views sought

1.2.​Your views are sought in the following areas:
• Whether the draft notes contain guidance that is realistic to carry out in practice
• If there is the right level of content in each MGN...

...MGNs, all under the same title, has already been published in part or in full by other members of industry, and looks to support and underpin what should be already seen as good practice for those going to sea.
2.2​For small commercial vessels (SCVs) the guidance would be considered as good practice for the operation of a SCV and industry have agreed from feedback given at different consultation meetings, to be a demonstration of good practice for either seamanship or surveying.
2.3​For pleasure vessels, this is a sector that is largely unregulated by the MCA (class XII) so in most instances this will be the first time that the MCA, as a regulator, has published such direct advice to the leisure sector. However, great care has been taken to ensure that the advice contained within the MGNs supports and replicates advice given by groups representing the leisure / pleasure sector such as the Cruising Association and Royal Yachting Association (RYA).
2.4​ Where clarity is sought to be given to the owners/managing agents of SCVs, special care has been given not to change or amend the text of the applicable regulations these MGNs look to support. Instead, the text looks to provide further detail on the intent of the regulation. At the same time, the clarity provided is also commonly understood as good seamanship principles for both the pleasure and commercial sectors.

Summary of Options and Recommendation
2.5​Options:
• Do nothing- this would not comply with one of the values of the MCA of doing everything within their capacity to ensure the safety of lives at sea as far as possible.
• Encourage voluntary application – although boat owners, managing agents and skippers may already be carrying out best practice when it comes to safety, these notes are to ensure that as many as possible are aware of what they need to do to meet the acceptable standard.
• Publish Marine Guidance Notes (MGNs) that highlight yacht and powerboat safety at sea. This is the best option to reinforce to owners what it is they need to do to meet reasonable standards of safety and to ensure that guidance on safety is applied equally to those who fall within a regulatory framework and those that fall outside.
 
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Minn said:
May I respectfully suggest that rather than just looking at the links, you ACTUALLY READ THEM.
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I did read them and agree that they seem to focus on commercially operated boats - but there is sufficient ambiguity in them that they could be interpreted as applying to owner maintenance of privately owned boats. Fortunately, I gave that up a long time ago, so I'm not too worried about their interpretation.
 
maby said:
I did read them and agree that they seem to focus on commercially operated boats - but there is sufficient ambiguity in them that they could be interpreted as applying to owner maintenance of privately owned boats. Fortunately, I gave that up a long time ago, so I'm not too worried about their interpretation.
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Well, that means that either you pay people to do it or you no longer own a boat, so as you say you are not affected.

For the rest of us, I repeat:

‘2.3​For pleasure vessels, this is a sector that is largely unregulated by the MCA (class XII) so in most instances this will be the first time that the MCA, as a regulator, has published such direct advice to the leisure sector. However, great care has been taken to ensure that the advice contained within the MGNs supports and replicates advice given by groups representing the leisure / pleasure sector such as the Cruising Association and Royal Yachting Association (RYA).’
 
Since the ‘advice’ is said to repeat what the RYA and the ÇA already say, the advice is useless except to start the process of bringing class XII vessels within the sphere of MCA regulation.

Before the MCA do that - and please note that they are NOT asking anyone if this expansion of their authority is a good idea - they are just asking for advice on detail - it might be an idea for them to first achieve at least an ‘O’ level competency in English grammar:

‘
2.11​For pleasure vessel owners, the guidance contained reinforces good seamanship principals that are already communicated by user groups such as the RYA and Cruising Association – therefore the actions and guidance contained within this MGN are already published and is highly likely to be followed by a prudent owner of a pleasure vessel.’

That’s ‘ principles’ and are we speaking in the singular or the plural?
 
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TwoHooter said:
A word about the status of the Draft Marine Guidance Notes which are open for consultation.

They are being quite subtle about this. The drafts are indeed guidance. But read these paragraphs together and see what you think (Bold text is my emphasis):

'For pleasure vessels, this is a sector that is largely unregulated by the MCA (class XII) so in most instances this will be the first time that the MCA, as a regulator, has published such direct advice to the leisure sector.'
2.5 Options:..... Publish Marine Guidance Notes (MGNs) that highlight yacht and powerboat safety at sea. This is the best option to reinforce to owners what it is they need to do to meet reasonable standards of safety and to ensure that guidance on safety is applied equally to those who fall within a regulatory framework and those that fall outside.
There is asymmetry in this market as some vessel owners will be following the regulations on safety more closely than others. This is because a lot of vessel owners will have completed a course that teaches some elements of safety whilst others have not. They have in effect been taught how to interpret the legislation around safety in practice. Whilst it could be argued that this safety legislation is available to all vessel owners, the exact way they should be interpreted in practice may not always be clear. As a result, these 6 MGNs’ purpose is to close that knowledge gap so that everyone is interpreting the regulations in the correct way and applying at least the minimum safety standard. .... The consequence of there being asymmetric information in the market is that passengers going on board pleasure vessels will not be able to determine which owners have put the correct safety measures in place and which ones have not.
Our aim is for the Marine Guidance Notes to come into force no later than the end of August 2019. The Regulations will be published on www.legislation.gov.uk

I think they are saying that we will need to follow the same guidance on safety as those who fall within the "regulatory framework" - which means commercial vessels and motor yachts etc. over 24m - so that everyone is following the same rules whether your boat is a RIB or a day fisher or a big motor cruiser... or a superyacht. And they talk about their "guidance notes" coming into force. That doesn't sound to me like guidance at all, that sounds like regulation.

And for me the killer, the thing that I can't live with, is this:
2.5 Unless trained and/or qualified to do so, safety critical maintenance should not be carried out by the owner/managing agent or skipper.
So (in theory) that's an end to me doing an engine service, or developing our new PC-based nav system, or installing smoke and CO alarms, changing the fire extinguishers, the prop and thruster anodes, or the bilge pump float switch.... etc. etc.

The title of this thread is, I think, correct.
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I agree entirely.
 
capnsensible said:
What don't people get about 'advice and guidance??' Flappy flappy.
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Have you read the thread? Do you understand the words ‘best practice’?

This is not ‘ flappy flappy’, this is the Department for Transport trying to undo almost everything that the RYA and the ÇA have been trying to preserve for decades.

Why do you suppose that we have the ‘RYA’ Yachtmaster scheme, and all that goes with it? It was set up precisely to stop Government interference in messing about in boats by producing a voluntary system that would do the job better.

As noted above the British flag merchant fleet is vanishing like the morning dew under the impact of Brexit and the denizens of Commercial Road are looking to keep their jobs.
 
Of course I have Minn. I have been involved with running Small Commercial Vessels for over twenty years. With the RYA for longer. I was one of the first to get a boat 'coded' when the requirement first arose. I'm familiar with all the rules and regulations of running a commercial sailing school. I also own and live on a yacht. 20 years. So yes I get the lot, from changing a fuel filter to the Maritime Labour Convention. From sewing up a ripped sail in the middle of the Pacific to Firefighting, Hygene certificates and MGNs.

So dudes you are reading far too much into this. Relax, no one in a brown coat and bowler hat is gonna turn up tomorrow to check you got a spare fan belt. Bringing awareness into people's lives is a whole bundle of baggy wrinkles away from what some of you are, yes, flapping about.
 
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