The dangers of windlass

Although it seems to we sailors that you would have to be pretty unobservant not to realise that a windlass represented a risk, the situation doesn't appear the same to non-sailors, and the same goes for sheet winches.

I don't think that I have ever been in the position of exposing a guest to an active windlass, but I do think that a full briefing and demonstration should be the minimum one should aim at. I always treat my winches as I would an armed grenade when I have guests on board.

Although on the whole I am in favour of anything that will quieten guitarists, I think this chap might have a case.
 
In an industrial situation these days, training would be mandatory before using even the simplest of machinery. Charter customers often pretend they have more experience than they actually have but, if everything had to be explained and practiced, handover would take the best part of a day.
 
Wandering Star said:
Surely to charter a boat, the owner/charter company would expect the charterer to be qualified or at least show evidence of experience? And an experienced sailor should know full well the risks winches or windlasses present to the foolish?
Click to expand...
You beat me to saying it. I thought a boating license was required in Australia.
 
KompetentKrew said:
You beat me to saying it. I thought a boating license was required in Australia.
Click to expand...
The marine licence in Australia looks very impressive with its photo ID complete with holograms to prevent forgery. In reality it is little more than a government money making exercise. A few easy multiple choice theory questions answered on a computer screen are all that is needed to obtain a licence.

The UK model of limited regulations for recreational boat owners (together with plenty of support and encouragement to obtain meaningful training ) is vastly superior in my view.
 
noelex said:
The marine licence in Australia looks very impressive with its photo ID complete with holograms to prevent forgery. In reality it is little more than a government money making exercise. A few easy multiple choice theory questions answered on a computer screen are all that is needed to obtain a licence.

The UK model of limited regulations for recreational boat owners (together with plenty of support and encouragement to obtain meaningful training ) is vastly superior in my view.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

A fault lies with 'bureaucracy' in allowing anyone, in Australia, who has completed a simply multiple choice theory questionnaire, to charter a, relatively large and expensive, vessel, which is composed of a collection of potentially dangerous pieces of equipment. I am not sure, not have been subjected to the process that European legislation covers, engines, windlass and winches (in detail) to name a few. So I'm sure European legislation is better - but I'm not sure it would cover the specific incident.

It is equally impossible for a charter company to cover every dangerous scenario (whether in Australia or Europe) - or they could but I suspect it would take 2 weeks.

But Noelex comment is not quite accurate - you actually need no license to chart a sailing yacht in New south Wale, Australia, you need one for a power boat - not a sailing yacht. I have, but am not required to have, a license in New South Wales.

I think there is an assumption that if you want to charter a sailing yacht - you have cognisance of what you are doing - but if not it will rapidly become apparent. Many charter companies here will not allow the charter party to leave or return to a marina - unless under supervision.

It will be interesting to see the outcome.

Jonathan
 
We have legislation that compels anyone who wishers to skipper a boat to pass an extensive examination which includes colregs, Navigation and practical sailing skills including of points of sail and MOB recovery procedure.

There is nothing with regard to the operation of any mechanical equipment or how repair any mechanical equipment.

in this case what about personal responsibilities and taking responsibility for his own actions.
 
vyv_cox said:
Many years ago we were told that the Shell tanker fleet lost £500,000 worth of anchors and chain every year. Perhaps not quite as spectacularly as that.
Click to expand...

I recall one of their Brunei shuttle LNG carriers losing one: the anchor, which must have been as old as the ship, (no spring chicken!)was dropped, to get into the loading berth, and it just cracked across the shank. It certainly made one think. One of my Swire Pacific Offshore colleagues did estimate how many times it had been dropped there - it was quite a large number.
 
Last edited:
vyv_cox said:
There seems to be an assumption in this thread that such accidents only happen to beginners/fools/guitarists. In fact plenty of experienced people, including me, have trapped fingers between chain and windlass. Mine was fortunately quite minor and healed in a few days but one of our leading posters, very experienced, is recovering at home from a very serious accident to his fingers.
Click to expand...

I will also confess to having caught a finger whilst raising the anchor on a pal's yacht. Luckily mine was just a simple fracture but i was so ashamed that I kept quiet about it.
Your very experienced leading nameless (and fingerless!) poster tells me that he is in discussion with Lewmar to try to design a guard that will keep fingers away from the chain as it goes round the winch. Good luck to them.
 
Fr J Hackett said:
A bitter end.
Click to expand...

Presumably the flames and smoke are the brake band? Or? Are we looking at poorly maintained kit? It seems to get out of hand fairly quickly towards the end, despite the blokes trying to work the brake.

As for the charterer.. he stated that it was kinking up and not running cleanly. Yet he tries to sort it with his hand? And he had convinced the owners that he could sail the yacht bare boat...

Wonder what the judge will say.
 
Last edited:
Resolution said:
I will also confess to having caught a finger whilst raising the anchor on a pal's yacht. Luckily mine was just a simple fracture but i was so ashamed that I kept quiet about it.
Your very experienced leading nameless (and fingerless!) poster tells me that he is in discussion with Lewmar to try to design a guard that will keep fingers away from the chain as it goes round the winch. Good luck to them.
Click to expand...
But then you could get fingers trapped between guard and chain!!
Only way is two buttons at least 6 inches apart that need to be pressed together, using finger from each hand before which operates. Chain on the way down may not need this. Only way to guarantee someone won't get fingers in the way!
 
black mercury said:
But then you could get fingers trapped between guard and chain!!
Only way is two buttons at least 6 inches apart that need to be pressed together, using finger from each hand before which operates. Chain on the way down may not need this. Only way to guarantee someone won't get fingers in the way!
Click to expand...

I would imagine that one person would simply operate the windlass whilst another sorts out the chain .... but, presumably, that tends to be the situation in many of these windlass disasters anyway. :ambivalence:

Richard
 
DownWest said:
Presumably the flames and smoke are the brake band? Or? Are we looking at poorly maintained kit? It seems to get out of hand fairly quickly towards the end, despite the blokes trying to work the brake.

As for the charterer.. he stated that it was kinking up and not running cleanly. Yet he tries to sort it with his hand? And he had convinced the owners that he could sail the yacht bare boat...

Wonder what the judge will say.
Click to expand...

Yes, it’s the brake band. It may not have been too good in the first place - I have known brake bands to be in poor shape even on the ocean greyhounds of the mighty P&O - but we don’t know that.
 
Minn said:
Yes, it’s the brake band. It may not have been too good in the first place - I have known brake bands to be in poor shape even on the ocean greyhounds of the mighty P&O - but we don’t know that.
Click to expand...

Prob not.
Since it is the only way of controlling the chain...But, wind load, speed over the ground, depth, etc.
 
scruff said:
This a standard warning to all new folk on board our boat - "don't reach for / use a rope to steady yourself - only things made out of wood, GRP, metal or wire & Keep fingers away from winches"
Click to expand...

I find anything you say to new people in their first hour on the boat goes in one ear, and straight out the other.
You need to give people some understanding of what they are playing with.
I am not very good at teaching this kind of stuff!
 
I used to have a ‘thing’ about building big ships with the Doppler log read out adjacent to the DGPS read out in the wheelhouse in order to give the best possible chance of ’actually stopping’ when dropping anchor. Unfortunately engineers supervising a newbuilding tend to screw on what they think of as ‘just dials’ at random...

But in this case it looks as if the brake was backed off too far. I’ve known that happen, too, when a laid up VLCC was being shifted in Eleusis Bay by a Greek runner crew - the British and Hong Kong lay up crew of four were so annoyed that they lowered a boat, rowed methodically over the scene of the crime dragging a grapnel knocked up in the engine room, found the cable and got it back. Four men, dead ship. One of the more impressive feats of seamanship, ingenuity and sheer bloody mindedness that I have known.
 
Last edited:
This court case may be yet another indication of the direction of our courts regarding liability. Logic and good sense have nothing to do with the outcome the results being more related to the skill of the plaintiff lawyer and the defense of the insurance company. No one would sue a company if they did not have liability insurance as they would simply close up shop if they were successfully sued. (so no money)
There has been for a long time strories of family of a dead aircraft pilot successfully suing the aircraft manufacturer for not providing a safe aircraft. Even though clearly the pilot was foolish. Such that companies like Cessna and Piper were spending a huge portion f build cost for an aircraft on litigation insurance.
Back to this particular case morally the captain of the chartered boat is responsible for the safety of the crew. This would involve safety training if he asked the guitarist to operate the anchor winch. In reality the skipper might reasonably assume anyone would have enough sense to keep their fingers out of the danger. But more importantly the skipper presumably has no liability insurance himself and no way of paying the damages for a suit. So is not held to blame. (or was the guitarist the skipper?
Now I am in support of public being able to sue for damages where a provider clearly fails in his duty to provide a safe product or even training. But we would hope courts will be sensible to public and industry norms. Unfortunately I have no confidence in courts being sensible.
Just a foot note on skipper licensing in Oz. This is legislated by individual states. The training required is very much oriented to the 5 metre trailer-ed outboard powered boat. Where most fatalities have occurred in the past. The requirement extends to any boat with a motor. Certainly training would never extend to operating anchor winches. Though I am not aware of requirements in Oz I believe yacht charter companies would be looking for a skipper to show experience or skills before the charter. ol'will
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top