The costs of pulling the throttles back

[dylanwinter]

so is anyone going to contest the £5 ball park figure for coming off and on the plane to slow down for a moment or two

 

[rustybarge]

Another way to look at it, bearing in mind it's say 15-20 litres/mile at any planning speed, is £20/mile

You must have a special deal at the pumps....€1 a litre is a fantastic price for diesel in the south of France.

 

[blueglass]

MOBOs pay per mile, sail boats get big big bills periodically.

trouble is we periodically get the big, big big bills as well!

 

[DAKA]

so is anyone going to contest the £5 ball park figure for coming off and on the plane to slow down for a moment or two

just for the record I am also interested and welcome sensible logic especially if jfm has a flow meter installed and knows the actually burn rate during the hump transition, I calculated on the cautious side, Dylan might actually owe the stinker and his family a drink for the consideration of reduced wash as he tacked out against the tide to save 50 pence of diesel.

 

[Trundlebug]

just for the record I am also interested and welcome sensible logic especially if jfm has a flow meter installed and knows the actually burn rate during the hump transition, I calculated on the cautious side, Dylan might actually owe the stinker and his family a drink for the consideration of reduced wash as he tacked out against the tide to save 50 pence of diesel.

Easy, just count the seconds to get on the plane:

One gallon, two gallons, three gallons...

 

[Fantasie 19]

I do 700 litres an hour at 30knots, and fuel is £1.20/litre. So that's £14 per minute. Or about £1 every 4 seconds, which happens to be very easy to visualise because it is like standing there inserting £1 coins continuously into a slot machine!

At more modest cruising speed the thing drops from 700 to 400 litres/hour and therefore the £14 drops to £8 per minute.

Another way to look at it, bearing in mind it's say 15-20 litres/mile at any planning speed, is £20/mile

But a boat was never designed as a cheap mode of transport.

Yee gods!!

 

[flaming]

If you did a £/mile for some racey sails it would make diesel look cheap!!

£/mile maybe. £/hour probably much closer to, if not cheaper.

But JFM says at max chat he spends £20 a mile. Wowzers. The Fastnet race (for example) is 600 miles. If I was to buy sails for that one race I would have a budget of £12,000 before I'd spent more than JFM getting round the course. Even if I was a "high end" offshore campaign replacing sails every year I would do at least 3 or 4 times the mileage in a season. So say £40k to make a JFM's boat go full chat over the same sort of distance.

It's a pretty big boat before the annual sail budget is north of £40k. And most average race boats would make a main last at least 2 seasons, and similar for the jibs, and the kites.

So for cost per hour, consider that the Fastnet could take about 3 days for a quick boat. So that's 72 hours. At JFM's £14 a minute, that would be a sail budget of over £60,000. So maybe 3 times that over a season - £180,000. At his £8 a minute cruising figure it would be £34k for the fastnet and £100k+ for a season.

That's comparing well to what a lot of the maxi campaigns would spend. In fact it would make most of them envious.

 

[gjgm]

so is anyone going to contest the £5 ball park figure for coming off and on the plane to slow down for a moment or two

I dont think it is that much.. I think that was a bit tongue in cheek.
If you assumed that you actually go into neutral , as a worse case. For me with slightly larger engines, it is supposed to be 120 lph at full speed, so lets assume I restart with full throttle, and lets assume that is then actually swallowing 120lph.
If it takes me 15 seconds to get back on the plane (no idea), I think Gary might have the decimal in the wrong place
However, you could add in that his journey is actually 50pct longer because he is swerving all over the place to keep a 5 mile distance from the nearest raggie who has his spy glass out looking for a 5cm wash

 

[PEJ]

£/mile maybe. £/hour probably much closer to, if not cheaper.

But JFM says at max chat he spends £20 a mile. Wowzers. The Fastnet race (for example) is 600 miles. If I was to buy sails for that one race I would have a budget of £12,000 before I'd spent more than JFM getting round the course. Even if I was a "high end" offshore campaign replacing sails every year I would do at least 3 or 4 times the mileage in a season. So say £40k to make a JFM's boat go full chat over the same sort of distance.

It's a pretty big boat before the annual sail budget is north of £40k. And most average race boats would make a main last at least 2 seasons, and similar for the jibs, and the kites.

So for cost per hour, consider that the Fastnet could take about 3 days for a quick boat. So that's 72 hours. At JFM's £14 a minute, that would be a sail budget of over £60,000. So maybe 3 times that over a season - £180,000. At his £8 a minute cruising figure it would be £34k for the fastnet and £100k+ for a season.

That's comparing well to what a lot of the maxi campaigns would spend. In fact it would make most of them envious.

Flaming - run that by me again but slowly!

How much do racing sails cost?

 

[wipe_out]

To be honest I am even considering learning to sail to see if it's a viable way for me to spend time on the water.. I can only see the fuel costs rising higher and faster in years to come and that will mean less time on the water or other compromises to afford it..

Of course as the oil price rises so will the manufacturing costs of producing "plastic" boats.. Ultimately it will be back to wood and steel boats in a few generations time..

 

[MapisM]

Unless and until every planing boat owner becomes accustomed to cruising at slow speed and used boat buyers learn to accept higher engine hours as a result, slowing down might be self defeating in terms of money saved

Actually, stating the not so bleedin' obvious, engine hours is NOT the most accurate measurement of engines wear.
The amount of fuel burnt is. In fact, that's the basis for the maintenance schedule in big commercial engines, rather than the hours.
Of course, it's neither easy to make average pleasure boaters understand that, nor give them a proof of the fuel burnt.
But that's a different matter altogether.

 

[ricky_s]

To be honest I am even considering learning to sail to see if it's a viable way for me to spend time on the water.. I can only see the fuel costs rising higher and faster in years to come and that will mean less time on the water or other compromises to afford it..

Of course as the oil price rises so will the manufacturing costs of producing "plastic" boats.. Ultimately it will be back to wood and steel boats in a few generations time..

Sailing is very different, if I could no longer afford a mobo I would just find another interest or leave the boat in a marina. If I can't afford to leave it there it doesn't matter if it has sails or not.

 

[DAKA]

To be honest I am even considering learning to sail to see if it's a viable way for me to spend time on the water.. I can only see the fuel costs rising higher and faster in years to come and that will mean less time on the water or other compromises to afford it..

Of course as the oil price rises so will the manufacturing costs of producing "plastic" boats.. Ultimately it will be back to wood and steel boats in a few generations time..

I looked into it and I am not convinced sail is cheaper per mile than motor.

You need to include berthing fees and remember you need an extra 10ft of sailing boat to get anywhere close to the accommodation of a flybridge.

then work out how many miles you are likely to cover in a year, yes I know we all want to cruise 200nm a week but the weather and family commitments will keep most of us at 1000 ish a year.
add your fuel to your berthing costs and divide by number of miles covered.

Now check the 10ft longer sailboat, work out how many miles you will make in a season @ 5 knots, knock 50% off because most are in the wrong 8loody direction and divide by berthing costs .........

power is cheaper per mile because you cover more miles, the further you go the cheaper it gets (as long as you dont keep slowing down

 

[rustybarge]

To be honest I am even considering learning to sail to see if it's a viable way for me to spend time on the water.. I can only see the fuel costs rising higher and faster in years to come and that will mean less time on the water or other compromises to afford it..

Of course as the oil price rises so will the manufacturing costs of producing "plastic" boats.. Ultimately it will be back to wood and steel boats in a few generations time..

Energy prices are predicted to fall or stay level over the next decade, not rise. The exponential rise of the bric countres has levelled off, and shale gas, artic oil etc will soon start coming on tap.

It's all good news.

 

[jfm]

You must have a special deal at the pumps....€1 a litre is a fantastic price for diesel in the south of France.

I think it's your maths, rustybarge! . 17.5 litres/mile (the mid point of the range of figures I quoted) at £1.19 per litre is about £20/mile.

FWIW, taxed fuel in France in large qtys is €1.42 ie £1.19. Lasy Friday. Detax is about 80cents I believe, but I'm not 100% sure because I only use taxed fuel

 

[jfm]

Actually, stating the not so bleedin' obvious, engine hours is NOT the most accurate measurement of engines wear.
The amount of fuel burnt is. In fact, that's the basis for the maintenance schedule in big commercial engines, rather than the hours.
Of course, it's neither easy to make average pleasure boaters understand that, nor give them a proof of the fuel burnt.
But that's a different matter altogether.

Hear hear. 100% true, but as you say MapisM it is hard to get this into the head of your average boat buyer. Cat engines record total fuel burnt, btw

 

[jfm]

just for the record I am also interested and welcome sensible logic especially if jfm has a flow meter installed and knows the actually burn rate during the hump transition, I calculated on the cautious side, Dylan might actually owe the stinker and his family a drink for the consideration of reduced wash as he tacked out against the tide to save 50 pence of diesel.

I don't have the data but will try to capture it next time I go out - this coming weekend. My proposed method, and please everyone feel free to comment/critique, is simply to use the "trip" total fuel burn read out on the electronics.

Step 1: get the boat to constant 20knots straight line, reset trips (for fuel from ECUs, and for miles logged by GPS) to zero then record fuel litres burn @ 20 knots steady state, for say 3 nm distance covered.
Step 2: as above, but after say 1nm reduce the boat to 5 knots, then immediately accelerate back up to steady state 20 knots, and complete the same 3nm

Record the delta in litres burnt.

Now this isn't perfect. It all depends upon what you define as your step 2. If you drive faster than 20 knots to make up for the "lost time" caused by slowing down then step 2 will tend to burn more even more fuel. But for a start I'll do it per step 1+2 above I think, so as to keep it simple

 

[jfm]

£/mile maybe. £/hour probably much closer to, if not cheaper.

But JFM says at max chat he spends £20 a mile. Wowzers. The Fastnet race (for example) is 600 miles. If I was to buy sails for that one race I would have a budget of £12,000 before I'd spent more than JFM getting round the course. Even if I was a "high end" offshore campaign replacing sails every year I would do at least 3 or 4 times the mileage in a season. So say £40k to make a JFM's boat go full chat over the same sort of distance.

It's a pretty big boat before the annual sail budget is north of £40k. And most average race boats would make a main last at least 2 seasons, and similar for the jibs, and the kites.

So for cost per hour, consider that the Fastnet could take about 3 days for a quick boat. So that's 72 hours. At JFM's £14 a minute, that would be a sail budget of over £60,000. So maybe 3 times that over a season - £180,000. At his £8 a minute cruising figure it would be £34k for the fastnet and £100k+ for a season.

That's comparing well to what a lot of the maxi campaigns would spend. In fact it would make most of them envious.

Hmmm for equal hull volume to a 24m mobo that burns £12000 on fastnet return you'd be in a 30m, say Gliss or Hamilton or something nice like that. Annualised sail cost would indeed be north of £40k, if you want quality. New sails (main, gen and kite) would be say £175k, every 2 seasons say, and the 600nm of the fastnet race might be 7% of the miles over the 2 years, which is £12k, haha!

 

[wipe_out]

@ricky_s - Yes, I am sure it's very different but I have NEVER sailed in my life, not even sure I have been inside a sail boat, so need to at least experience it before I make the call.. I have always been a "petrol head" though so it's certainly not the obvious choice for me but stranger things have happened..

@DAKA - That's the investigation I have been doing because have been considering changing boats next year or the year after.. Like you say, it seems quite a bit more LOA is needed to give the same feeling of "space" but that may not be a bad thing as far as sailing goes because as I understand it longer boats are faster..

@rustybarge - Can't ever see the prices falling, just energy companies profits rising.. Will be good if they don't climb further though..

 

[ricky_s]

@ricky_s - Yes, I am sure it's very different but I have NEVER sailed in my life, not even sure I have been inside a sail boat, so need to at least experience it before I make the call.. I have always been a "petrol head" though so it's certainly not the obvious choice for me but stranger things have happened..

Well if you want to experience what it is like, go out on your current boat but put tie ropes all around you to fall over, then get a boat hook and tie that to one of your legs (to represent the always in the way tiller!), then find something uncomfortable to sit on. If you can then lean over the side as much as possible to make the boat heal that will make it even better. Don't worry that you can't see where you are going as this is optional on a sailboat anyway