Independence
Well-Known Member
Bring on the Jester Challengers.
The ARC - is my Gast Flabbered?
- Thread starter HoratioHB
- Start date
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Well if that's so it must be new. We just had a young bloke from the office with a questionnaire. It took about 15 minutes. I can't imagine them paying for a rigger to check every boat, think of the cost.
samwise
Well-Known Member
I was in the 2009 ARC and the story we heard about Pelican was that the rig became "unstable" from which one deduces that there was strong likelihood of it going over the side, with consequent problems. We also heard on the SSB net that they were "unable" to use their engine although I heard nothing about the prop wrap until later.
We never saw anyone doing rig checks on behalf of the ARC organisation, although the riggers in Las Palmas were working hard to service the demands from many of the 210 yachts in the marina.
Did they give up too easily -- as one critical poster said quite rightly, he wasn't there. This was my first transat and it was bloody lonely out there. No RNLI to call on and the skipper having to ( in the case of Pelican) examine the prospect of carrying on fcr 3000 miles plus with a dodgy rig, try to run for the Cap Verdes and overall and most importantly, making a decision that was in the very best interests of the safety of his crew. You would expect that with a fleet the size of the ARC you would be running into yachts all over the place. Not so. After the start and the first night we saw about four other boats in sight and only one at close enough quarters to take mutual pictures until we were hours out from St Lucia.
Many forumites have loads of experience amd many transats under their belts. They have been there and are perhaps entitled to criticise. The armchair critics rather less so, they weren't there.
We never saw anyone doing rig checks on behalf of the ARC organisation, although the riggers in Las Palmas were working hard to service the demands from many of the 210 yachts in the marina.
Did they give up too easily -- as one critical poster said quite rightly, he wasn't there. This was my first transat and it was bloody lonely out there. No RNLI to call on and the skipper having to ( in the case of Pelican) examine the prospect of carrying on fcr 3000 miles plus with a dodgy rig, try to run for the Cap Verdes and overall and most importantly, making a decision that was in the very best interests of the safety of his crew. You would expect that with a fleet the size of the ARC you would be running into yachts all over the place. Not so. After the start and the first night we saw about four other boats in sight and only one at close enough quarters to take mutual pictures until we were hours out from St Lucia.
Many forumites have loads of experience amd many transats under their belts. They have been there and are perhaps entitled to criticise. The armchair critics rather less so, they weren't there.
SimonJ
Well-Known Member
ARC Rig checks
There is one insurer who advertises that they fund a rigger to check the rig of boats they insure prior to the ARC.
We non ARC people do our own rig checks! (And still get problems, changing out a lower failed shroud in the trades is not much fun!)
There is one insurer who advertises that they fund a rigger to check the rig of boats they insure prior to the ARC.
We non ARC people do our own rig checks! (And still get problems, changing out a lower failed shroud in the trades is not much fun!)
tcm
...
Interesting points here
I was within VHF range when aulianan summink put out the cal that they had lost their rudder. They ddn't say argh come and get us. They just saed they had lost their rudder. I have no idea what happened after that - it was an external rudder i think so no damage other than flippin awkward steering. But they didn't sound as tho they had things in control, much - just got on the vhf almost as tho it was inshore race retirement, a bit. But i don't know.
I wasn't anywhere near pelican, so we just saw same (or less) reports as others.
There's a huge range of mechanical abilities on ARC boats from those who are pretty self sufficient to others who just don't hav the tools or expertise to fix much if anything. No part of the arc inspects the tools you have on board, for example.
For me, the surprise of the arc was that it is so very racy - there is more startline race briefing than there s anything about how to fix stuff, or how able you should be to fix stuff. But wcc in YW mag do say - how far do we go with the seminars? Fair enough.
I think that the moment you put out a call indicating that you have a problem and without a plan to fix it (in other words, advertise that as of now you aren't self -sufficient in your transat) then MRCC etc will start to take over, and a ship/coastguard whatever turns up ...so now do you turn away the rescue boat or say what the heck, yeah, let's abandon? Miles from land, if you have no fix and put out a call, you might lose the boat, so spose you have to sure that you're okay about that. I am extremely wary of making a call and wd try most things first. Perhps many put out a call as it's something to "do" at a time that one knows you oughta "do something". However, to me, triggering iffy wire transfers on to big metal ship in the dark seem a lot dodgier than poncing about with jury-rudder experiments and likely taking an extra week at sea.
If you put out the call early, i supose you lose some of the choice of what to do - and one should bear in mind that the pressure f crew safety is hefty - one can almost feel the frantic loved ones at home...you goona turn away the ship that has just turned up? Difficult. Altho for both bpats, as far as i can see, would have been fine fiddling and drifting fr days and still had the option to make a call.
They *could* have made a call saying they had rudder problems and were working on effecting a fix. I hope i wd have done that. In fact er, I did have probs and did exactly that. I think i also wrote a blog that said argh we lost the Paprika! - oh and also the watermaker by the way...
Years ago aged 13, my pushbike conclusively busted about 15miles from home - the main crank snapped so pedals both sagged. I rang my mum up and she told me in no uncertain terms that i wd have to sort it, she wasn't coming out in a car, not possible, i'd have to walk or fix it. I cursed and thought that srely it was possible. I walked it home. I wonder if perhaps my mum's attitude oughta feature a bit more strongly at marine rescue services sometimes - is there a point at which they shd say, yeah, you're in the sh*te but the boat floats fine and you're nicely away from land so what's your plan, hm?
I lost most 240v so emergency water most of the way across, and we had a MOB altho in daylight. I reported neither until sometime later if at all. Since i had paid the money i asked arc that i might ned help sourcing spare unfried relays, but swmbo was far more effective geting them, eventually.
I was within VHF range when aulianan summink put out the cal that they had lost their rudder. They ddn't say argh come and get us. They just saed they had lost their rudder. I have no idea what happened after that - it was an external rudder i think so no damage other than flippin awkward steering. But they didn't sound as tho they had things in control, much - just got on the vhf almost as tho it was inshore race retirement, a bit. But i don't know.
I wasn't anywhere near pelican, so we just saw same (or less) reports as others.
There's a huge range of mechanical abilities on ARC boats from those who are pretty self sufficient to others who just don't hav the tools or expertise to fix much if anything. No part of the arc inspects the tools you have on board, for example.
For me, the surprise of the arc was that it is so very racy - there is more startline race briefing than there s anything about how to fix stuff, or how able you should be to fix stuff. But wcc in YW mag do say - how far do we go with the seminars? Fair enough.
I think that the moment you put out a call indicating that you have a problem and without a plan to fix it (in other words, advertise that as of now you aren't self -sufficient in your transat) then MRCC etc will start to take over, and a ship/coastguard whatever turns up ...so now do you turn away the rescue boat or say what the heck, yeah, let's abandon? Miles from land, if you have no fix and put out a call, you might lose the boat, so spose you have to sure that you're okay about that. I am extremely wary of making a call and wd try most things first. Perhps many put out a call as it's something to "do" at a time that one knows you oughta "do something". However, to me, triggering iffy wire transfers on to big metal ship in the dark seem a lot dodgier than poncing about with jury-rudder experiments and likely taking an extra week at sea.
If you put out the call early, i supose you lose some of the choice of what to do - and one should bear in mind that the pressure f crew safety is hefty - one can almost feel the frantic loved ones at home...you goona turn away the ship that has just turned up? Difficult. Altho for both bpats, as far as i can see, would have been fine fiddling and drifting fr days and still had the option to make a call.
They *could* have made a call saying they had rudder problems and were working on effecting a fix. I hope i wd have done that. In fact er, I did have probs and did exactly that. I think i also wrote a blog that said argh we lost the Paprika! - oh and also the watermaker by the way...
Years ago aged 13, my pushbike conclusively busted about 15miles from home - the main crank snapped so pedals both sagged. I rang my mum up and she told me in no uncertain terms that i wd have to sort it, she wasn't coming out in a car, not possible, i'd have to walk or fix it. I cursed and thought that srely it was possible. I walked it home. I wonder if perhaps my mum's attitude oughta feature a bit more strongly at marine rescue services sometimes - is there a point at which they shd say, yeah, you're in the sh*te but the boat floats fine and you're nicely away from land so what's your plan, hm?
I lost most 240v so emergency water most of the way across, and we had a MOB altho in daylight. I reported neither until sometime later if at all. Since i had paid the money i asked arc that i might ned help sourcing spare unfried relays, but swmbo was far more effective geting them, eventually.
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SeamanStaines
Well-Known Member
It is remarkable how quickly the rescue services can turn an informative call into a major rescue. Once I was on a boat that called the coastguard to say that we had a couple of divers who where overdue (we had a RIB out with about ten divers in it). We where simply informing them and asking them to let us know if they had any reports of surfaced divers. As expected (it was getting towards dusk) we located them from their torches, picked them up and call the coastguard to tell them.
In the meantime the Coastguard had scrambled the helicopter and launched the inshore lifeboat. We told them all was well and they could stand down but they inshore came to us and demanded we hand over the 'casualties' as they had organised ambulances and helicopters to take them to a decompression chamber (we where only diving in seven metres of water!).
We refused as the diving medical officer who happened to be on board clearly confirmed that there was nothing wrong but they decided to escort us back to port anyway (we could go a bit faster than them anyway so it was more of a race!)
Arriving back in port we are accosted by police and ambulances that took further effort to convince there was nothing wrong and that the divers did not need to go to a deco chamber (they just had bad ear ache from the b***cking we had given them)
No PAN PAN, or MAYDAY called, simply an informative call to report a potential difficulty. I can easily see how simply telling the emergency services that your rudder is a bit wobbly turns into a rescue and you quickly lose control of the situation.
In the meantime the Coastguard had scrambled the helicopter and launched the inshore lifeboat. We told them all was well and they could stand down but they inshore came to us and demanded we hand over the 'casualties' as they had organised ambulances and helicopters to take them to a decompression chamber (we where only diving in seven metres of water!).
We refused as the diving medical officer who happened to be on board clearly confirmed that there was nothing wrong but they decided to escort us back to port anyway (we could go a bit faster than them anyway so it was more of a race!)
Arriving back in port we are accosted by police and ambulances that took further effort to convince there was nothing wrong and that the divers did not need to go to a deco chamber (they just had bad ear ache from the b***cking we had given them)
No PAN PAN, or MAYDAY called, simply an informative call to report a potential difficulty. I can easily see how simply telling the emergency services that your rudder is a bit wobbly turns into a rescue and you quickly lose control of the situation.
tcm
...
Yes, it's Admiral. Good guy, Jerry. I don't sneer at this cos quite good idea to get fresh pair of eyes on things. He found stuff that I didnt, fair enough i spose?
chabrenas
Active Member
Snow Leopard: I can understand your reaction, but I've just re-read the thread up to my post. Your transcript of the report says 'unable to motor' and no indication of why - that seemed to me to include the possibility that it still could have been a fouled prop or something more serious underwater.
A propos Seaman Staines' description of over-reaction by coastguards - I think there was a letter in YM a while back in the same vein, but more serious because it involved salvage rights.
For the record, I am in favour of ARC and similar events, and it's interesting to hear from actual competitors. My real concern is for the whole culture change in the developed world, but that's actually an inevitable cost of civilisation, higher population densities, technology advances, etc.
Certainly, today's satellite-based rescue co-ordination is a very welcome change from trying to make direct contact with whatever may be in the vicinity, just as radio was a big step up from the Marconi man tapping out Morse code until the Titanic sank. And I'm sure the coastguard folks must have files of loony conversations equivalent to those the IT Help Desk guys gleefully publish from time to time...
A propos Seaman Staines' description of over-reaction by coastguards - I think there was a letter in YM a while back in the same vein, but more serious because it involved salvage rights.
For the record, I am in favour of ARC and similar events, and it's interesting to hear from actual competitors. My real concern is for the whole culture change in the developed world, but that's actually an inevitable cost of civilisation, higher population densities, technology advances, etc.
Certainly, today's satellite-based rescue co-ordination is a very welcome change from trying to make direct contact with whatever may be in the vicinity, just as radio was a big step up from the Marconi man tapping out Morse code until the Titanic sank. And I'm sure the coastguard folks must have files of loony conversations equivalent to those the IT Help Desk guys gleefully publish from time to time...
HoratioHB
Well-Known Member
As I started this thread I suppose now is a good time to come back in. Firstly I have never done an ARC. I was in St lucia in 08 when they were all piling and also in Antigua the previous year when the Blue Water Rally lot were there. The thing I really liked was the atmosphere and the social, its certainly a good way to make friends. I may be crossing next year and would certainly consider it except for two things - one is money - why pay someone else to do what I am happy to do on my own. I looked at the world ARC last year and now way could I justify that cost to myself. Secondly I don't/won't leave on that sort of voyage if the weather is wrong. So I guess the jury is out for me.
However losing a rudder I can sympathise with - a modern fin ruddered boat will not steer with any jury rig I've tried, even if you can stop it sinking in the first place. Its rather like an aeroplane trying to fly with the tailplane missing - it won't.
A dodgy rig and no prop so soon after leaving begs the question as to how on earth did they leave in the first place and the overall competence of the skipper. Not a criticism of the ARC just amazement on my part as to how the boat even got to the start in the first place - its a long voyage there.
However losing a rudder I can sympathise with - a modern fin ruddered boat will not steer with any jury rig I've tried, even if you can stop it sinking in the first place. Its rather like an aeroplane trying to fly with the tailplane missing - it won't.
A dodgy rig and no prop so soon after leaving begs the question as to how on earth did they leave in the first place and the overall competence of the skipper. Not a criticism of the ARC just amazement on my part as to how the boat even got to the start in the first place - its a long voyage there.
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snowleopard
Well-Known Member
I was referring to this in my earlier posting:
"The five crew members of British yacht Pelican were evacuated from onboard their 53 foot Roberts design last last night (Tuesday 01 December) following a rig failure, approximately 300 nautical miles west of the Cape Verde Islands. The Singapore flagged merchant vessel Crimson Mars diverted to assist the yacht at the request of MRCC Falmouth, after skipper Darryl Saxton called a MayDay yesterday afternoon citing the 'unacceptable risk to his crew' of remaining aboard, as the yacht was also unable to motor and the rig was considered to be in a dangerous condition following several failures. MRCC Falmouth and MRCC Ponta Delgada (Azores) were involved in co-ordinating the evacuation of the yacht with the merchant ship."
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
Mayday? Doesn't sound like grave and imminent danger - from this safe distance, of course.
mcframe
Well-Known Member
I'm sometimes involved in IT helpdesk kind of things when they get escalated and, bearing in mind mayday "grave *and* imminent" criteria, I just ask things like "Is there a clear and present danger* to revenue-generating systems that requires immediate intervention?"
Suddenly, the marketing guy being unable to use the colour printer for next week's conference ceases to be a problem ;-)
*Too many Clancy/Submarine movies for me - my ringtone is <geekjoke> http://www.moviesounds.com/redoct/oneping.mp3 </geekjoke> ;-)
D
DogWatch
Guest
What was the weather doing?