The 12 metre class were used for America's Cup Racing, but the class is still alive.

[Frogmogman]

I should photograph the model I have of J Class Endeavor. The model was presented by Sir Thomas Sopwith to an aircraft parts manufacturer who made parts for Endeavor. The model was given to me by the widow of a descendant of the aircraft parts manufacturer. It is very stylish and just needs a little TLC to get it like new again. I suspect there were only a few made and is probably quite valuable.

I should imagine that if the Sir Thomas Sopwith provenance is documented then it probably is worth a bit.

 

[Kukri]

I should think that between the Sopwith Pup and the Hawker Harrier he bought quite a few aircraft parts, so the provenance certainly sounds right!

I vaguely think that she was the first boat to have rod rigging and - less confidently - she might have been the first with an aluminium mast?

By the way, very envious of your St Trop experience and were you near enough to confirm that the “language of command” as the MCA call it is Kiwi?

 

[Frogmogman]

Can't say I particularly noticed a Kiwi "language of command", but there certainly seemed to be no shortage of Antipodeans of both varieties knocking around the dock.

Heres a few photos (not great as the light was bad).

A couple of shots from the balcony of the Hotel Sube. From left to right, Shamrock, Lionheart, Velsheda, Hanuman. Cant remember the name of the big white schooner parked in the middle of them.

Shamrock

Lionheart

Velsheda

Hanuman

 

[Kukri]

They each have a boom gallows.

Good enough for a J class, good enough for my little slip of a thing.

I am now enjoying having a prejudice confirmed.

Isn’t the big white schooner the “ELEANORA”, which bears the same relationship to “WESTWARD” as “HANUMAN” does to “ENDEAVOUR II”?.

 

[Frogmogman]

Isn’t the big white schooner the “ELEANORA”, which bears the same relationship to “WESTWARD” as “HANUMAN” does to “ENDEAVOUR II”?.

No, I remember now. It’s Elena. Even bigger than Eleanora.

 

[Bajansailor]

Some more info about Elena -
ELENA OF LONDON (Yacht) Registered in United Kingdom - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 1010789, MMSI 235074534, Call Sign 2COR3

Elena - Home Page

Here is a photo of her that I took when she was sailing in the Mount Gay Round the Island Race here in January 2015
I was sailing on the Schooner Ruth - www.schoonerruth.com - and Elena overtook us at a rate of knots.



And some info on Eleonora for comparison -
ELEONORA E (Yacht) Registered in United Kingdom - Vessel details, Current position and Voyage information - IMO 8732984, MMSI 235008680, Call Sign MEDD4

Yacht Eleonora - THE YACHT

Re Velsheda, I saw her sailing in the Antigua Classics Regatta in 2011 - a far cry from the Velsheda I remember seeing in the Solent in the 80's and early 90's.

 

[Frogmogman]

Re Velsheda, I saw her sailing in the Antigua Classics Regatta in 2011 - a far cry from the Velsheda I remember seeing in the Solent in the 80's and early 90's.

Quite so. I went on board for a drink at Cowes when Les Williams was skippering her, she was a far cry from the gleaming yacht she is now, yet she was still a majestic and beautiful thing.

I should think that Velsheda's current Park Avenue boom probably cost as much as Terry Brabant's whole restoration budget. Rescuing Velsheda was a labour of love for him, and he did the best he could with what he had available. He certainly deserves credit for rescuing the old girl.

 

[flaming]

The current crop will no doubt be enjoyed in the future by sailors who are enthralled by AC75 racing today, just as the 12m class boats are cherished by people who loved that era of the AC back in the day, such as those who feature on the excellent clip that Concerto posted.

I'm not so sure about that.

The thing about the 12s, and to an extent the IACC class that followed, is that the skillset that is required to sail them is hardly different to the skillset of sailing a normal yacht. Watch that video and you see dip-pole gybes and mastmen bouncing halyards etc. As an average yacht racer of the era you could quite easily have got on board one of those boats and figured out how to get it round the course. Winning races would be a different matter of course, but I'd back our crew to be able to get a 12 around a course.

The AC75s are totally different. I very much doubt I have the ability to get one onto the foils, let alone tack or gybe it. The skillset required is very different. On that basis, unless the whole of sailing transitions to foiling, then I struggle to see the AC75s being picked up by average enthusiasts for this type of event.
And to be honest the body armour, helmets, emergency air bottles etc that are required to race that sort of boat probably makes it significantly less attractive for the wealthy yacht owner than the polo shirts and post race G&T that come with the 12s...

It's the reality of who is paying the bills that I think will be the biggest factor keeping hulls in the water in the future.

 

[Frogmogman]

I'm not so sure about that.

The thing about the 12s, and to an extent the IACC class that followed, is that the skillset that is required to sail them is hardly different to the skillset of sailing a normal yacht. Watch that video and you see dip-pole gybes and mastmen bouncing halyards etc. As an average yacht racer of the era you could quite easily have got on board one of those boats and figured out how to get it round the course. Winning races would be a different matter of course, but I'd back our crew to be able to get a 12 around a course.

The AC75s are totally different. I very much doubt I have the ability to get one onto the foils, let alone tack or gybe it. The skillset required is very different. On that basis, unless the whole of sailing transitions to foiling, then I struggle to see the AC75s being picked up by average enthusiasts for this type of event.
And to be honest the body armour, helmets, emergency air bottles etc that are required to race that sort of boat probably makes it significantly less attractive for the wealthy yacht owner than the polo shirts and post race G&T that come with the 12s...

It's the reality of who is paying the bills that I think will be the biggest factor keeping hulls in the water in the future.

Maybe. Your final sentence is the key; if there are enthusiasts who care enough about it all to put their hands in their pockets, then it will happen. Looking at the video, it doesn't look like there has been a lack of spending in keeping the 12s in such lovely condition, and although you or I can enjoy a charter in one, it still remains very niche. I accept that the fundamentals on a 12 are the same as on other yachts, but then the guys who sail the AC75s were sailors of normal boats once too (well, apart from some off the grinders who may be athletes from elsewhere), so the necessary techniques can be learned.

The whole foiling thing has been a very steep learning curve; who knows what people will know about sailing foilers 34 years from now ?

 

[Frogmogman]

You can charter her if you like.........

US 21 American Eagle — 12 Meter Yacht Charters

Or for £25000 you can own a 1/19th share of the 1958 challenger, Sceptre....
Sceptre - Sailing Boat Shares UK | Yacht Fractions

 

[flaming]

The whole foiling thing has been a very steep learning curve; who knows what people will know about sailing foilers 34 years from now ?

True...
It's just the whole ethos of the 12s and the J class etc now is gentile and sophisticated.

The foilers are all about speed and adrenaline. Even in their prime the 12s were a long way from being the fastest boats on the water, but they have a presence and a history and a beauty. Once the AC75s aren't the fastest thing going, I don't think they have that presence etc to make them worthwhile sailing "for fun" in the same way. If it's not the fastest thing, and you can't look good or enjoy it with a lot of your ordinary mates whilst doing it... What will be the draw?

One thing I can equate it to now is that despite the rise of sportsboats like the SB3 and J70 etc that deliver planing speeds and adrenaline downwind in breeze, the XOD, Dragon, Etchells etc still have big followings - and crucially plenty of former sportsboat guys are getting into the more "sedate" classes as they age. And despite the rise of the moth, and several "easy foilers" coming to the market, most dinghy sailing is still in pretty traditional boats.

It's the same with bigger boats. For the same(ish) money you can have a fast 40 or a classic wooden yacht. And there's a market for both. What there isn't though is a market for old IOR 1 tonners that were once the most sought after racing machines on the water. Or old Whitbread Maxis. Or IACC boats..... When something is no longer the latest greatest racing machine, for it to still have a purpose it has to have an appeal in a different way. 12s do. J class' do.
AC75s...? I doubt it.

 

[Kukri]

“It's the reality of who is paying the bills that I think will be the biggest factor keeping hulls in the water in the future.”

Yes, indeed. We can glance over from this racing thread to the “limits to wealth” thread.

Large yachts are associated in the minds of most people with the very unequal distribution of wealth, and indeed the existence of a racing fleet in the J class and another in the 12 metre class, with fleets of “straight eights” and “sixes” must remind us of the “Gilded Age” before WW1.

Our ability to tax the very rich was pretty good in the 1950s because drastic tax measures imposed in the Second World War were still effective, but the middle classes were doing well and we saw the family car and the racing dinghy. We did not see a single 12 metre until the New York Yacht Club concluded that nobody would ever again fit out a J, but just possibly the yachtsmen and women of an entire wealthy nation state might, if they formed syndicates, run to one or even two twelve metres. So the NYYC changed the Deed of Gift.

We now look around at the racing fleet of Js and think “They need not have done that!”, but they did and the “excess money” that once went into building a J to try for The Cup flows into big foilers.

Someone calculated that Lipton’s challenges under the Seawanhaka Rule and the Universal Rule came out at around eleven million pounds a try in present money, and we think that Ratcliffe has just spent maybe £150 million and not reached the Cup races.

 

[Kukri]

If we look down the list of present day owners of J class yachts we see a roll call of Silicon Valley billionaires.

J-class yacht

The difference between owning a J class and challenging for the Cup is the same as it always was even when the Cup challenges were in the J class - owners in the J class away from the Cup are having fun with their friends, giving the spectators some fun but at a safe distance from Hoi Polloi. Challengers for the Cup are looking to make a public statement and to secure their standing with the public - (Sopwith, Vanderbilt, Ratcliffe) perhaps even (Lipton, Prada) to sell them something, so they are - and they expect to be - in the full glare of publicity.

You could remove all media coverage from the J class races and it wouldn’t matter - do the same with the Cup and the circus would stop.

 

[dunedin]

Going back to the 12 Metres, they were of course an existing rating rule class long before their adoption for the Americas Cup. They were chosen as being moderately sized and not too expensive (before the inevitable arms race) for post War sailing. Hence it is hardly surprising that having been raced before AC, like their sister class the 6 Metre (and more rare these days the 8 Metre) they still get raced by some enthusiasts.

They do look quite pretty in some ways - though if you see a late generation AC one out of the water, their underwater shape is horribly bastardised to cheat the rating rules, not sweet lines at all.
Equally they became very much narrow lead mines, optimised for match racing in flatish coastal waters. They are not fast boats, though they will point well upwind, and is suspect most modern 50 footers would leave them for dead round a mixed course.

Of course for best match racing slowish one design boats are best to maximise the tactical element. Hence why Fireflies are still used for team racing, rather than 49ers. So if match racing were the real priority for AC we should probably use Etchells or Solings?

But AC is a spectacle, and needs to use boats that are by definition a world apart from what normal folk sail.

 

[dunedin]

. When something is no longer the latest greatest racing machine, for it to still have a purpose it has to have an appeal in a different way. 12s do. J class' do.
AC75s...? I doubt it.

I agree. Something like the 12 Sceptre (a moderate 12 before they went weird) can be kept on a mooring or pontoon berth, and 2 skilled crew plus a bunch of muscle can take for a sail quite easily. It will have a big diesel (weight is no issue) and a retractable bow thruster is not an issue. Electric winches easy stuff. Hence practical to use.

The current AC boats need an entire support infrastructure, ashore and on water. I believe the rigs need storing ashore in sheds and craning in for each sail (as does the boat but that might be more negotiable). They need large high speed chase boats and safety boats to rescue crew if they fall off or get trapped underneath. And that is before the skills needed to sail them.

So team sizes and infrastructures necessary to go for a sail bigger than a J Class (which can and do make cruises and deliveries with a handful of core crew). And the current AC boats don’t have the deck space, and luxury interiors etc that make billionaires want to have a boat docked in Cannes for the social.

 

[Frogmogman]

Yep. Thinking about it, I guess you and flaming are right.

Angle grinder and landfill it is then.

 

[Kukri]

There is something about watching the AC75s that makes me think of watching someone juggling on a unicycle. But if anyone wants to buy one I think there may be a couple for sale at the moment.

 

[NealB]

This thread has brought back happy memories from around 82/ 83, when Joscelyn and I spent a week (as paying guests), on board 'Southern Cross', cruising the Whitsunday Islands and the Barrier Reef.

The skipper was an ultra laid-back, hippy, Aussie lad, about the same age as us (around 30), named Danny: a very capable skipper.

He had just one permanent crew, so it was a very hands-on week, in some strong winds.

All of us were keen sailors, so the emphasis was on pushing ourselves, rather than top notch food and drink.

A fabulous week.

 

[Kukri]

Yep. Thinking about it, I guess you and flaming are right.

Angle grinder and landfill it is then.

Or perhaps a crew transfer vessel for offshore wind farms?

BAR Technologies: Racing ahead with wind - Splash247

 

[Frogmogman]

Here is a photo of her that I took when she was sailing in the Mount Gay Round the Island Race here in January 2015
I was sailing on the Schooner Ruth - www.schoonerruth.com - and Elena overtook us at a rate of knots.

Did you have anything to do with the building of Ruth ?