Thames Barges

kevburt

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Due to comments made on another thread I felt that it might be worthwhile putting the following facts on here regarding the handling of Thames Barges:

Firstly a vessels size increases by volume therefore a 90 foot vessel it’s nearer 6 times the size of a 30 foot one. Also barges weigh something in the region of a hundred tons.

Secondly although they have a shallow draft for their size this is counteracted by high windage, sometimes this means that to manoeuvre slowly the leeboards need to be lowered increasing draft by several feet.

Thirdly they have a very large turning circle and most of them have an engine to one side of centre restricting their ability to turn.

Fourthly there is a very large blind spot directly in front of the bow.

In view of the above facts, discussions have taken place with the MCA who have asserted that Barges come under Rule 9 as a "vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway."

Rule 9

(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can
safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

As such when motoring in any such area Barges are required to keep as far to the starboard side of the channel as they can and maintain course and speed so that any vessels of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel can take appropriate action to avoid them.

In spite of this generally speaking as fellow sailors, Bargemen will try to avoid causing disruption to vessels sailing especially if they are doing something like beating up against wind and tide but in general we can’t be expected to know whether the other vessel will go beyond the channel before tacking so trying to slow down or turn would only create difficulty as the other craft could then tack across our bows and we might not be able to see them do so.
 
Thanks for the information, very well put.
We toy boat sailors ought to be aware of this, but I don't think it is widely understood.
 
Hi Kevburt

When you say the MCA have asserted that...

how are they planning to publish this? Aren't colregs international so will they need to agree this with others?

There's also the age-old questions about the meaning of "impede". Does a slight alteration of course to avoid a stand on vessel count as impeding?

That said - I always love to see the barges on the water so anything that keeps them going is good.
 
I've been lucky enough to sail, and helm, on Thames barges quite a few times over the years, but thanks for the clarification.

On the occasion that I mentioned, I was on the starboard side of the channel, whereas the barge coming toward me was on the port - otherwise I probably wouldn't have even mentioned the event.
 
Unfortunately even the MCA haven't managed to give a definition of a narrow channel and I've even heard some people assert that the Thames estuary is a narrow channel. As for shape and sound signals there's none that I know of regarding narrow channels? The collision regs are international! Why should the MCA have to get anyone else to agree? All they have done is pass on there own interpretation of the rules. A simpler way of looking at them which has been suggested is that Vessels under 20m should keep clear of those over 20m.
I don't wish to get embroiled in discussions regarding things which might have happened which I wasn't involved in and was just trying to help people understand the problems involved.
 
Can you please cite this guidance?

What you are saying is that we should ignore the irpcs rules as there is some "guidance" from the MCA, which to be frank I have searched high and low for and have been unable to find.

There is one set of rules... And if the Thames barges are restricted in there ability to manouver in such a manner that they have to be given way to on someplace like the Orwell... Then they should be flying the appropriate day signals.

"Guidance" from the MCA being relied on by Thames barge operators is a accident waiting to happen.
 
Unfortunately even the MCA haven't managed to give a definition of a narrow channel and I've even heard some people assert that the Thames estuary is a narrow channel. As for shape and sound signals there's none that I know of regarding narrow channels? The collision regs are international! Why should the MCA have to get anyone else to agree? All they have done is pass on there own interpretation of the rules. A simpler way of looking at them which has been suggested is that Vessels under 20m should keep clear of those over 20m.
I don't wish to get embroiled in discussions regarding things which might have happened which I wasn't involved in and was just trying to help people understand the problems involved.

Rule 34?
 
Can you please cite this guidance?

What you are saying is that we should ignore the irpcs rules as there is some "guidance" from the MCA, which to be frank I have searched high and low for and have been unable to find.

There is one set of rules... And if the Thames barges are restricted in there ability to manouver in such a manner that they have to be given way to on someplace like the Orwell... Then they should be flying the appropriate day signals.

"Guidance" from the MCA being relied on by Thames barge operators is a accident waiting to happen.

No one is saying that Thames Barges are restricted in ability to manoeuvre and the regulation 9 (b) doesn't mention it either I didn't start this to have an argument but had hoped that it might prove helpful to people.
My personal feeling is that we all enjoy the waters of our coasts in our own way and rules are there for guidance and its up to us to try and work together.
 
No one is saying that Thames Barges are restricted in ability to manoeuvre and the regulation 9 (b) doesn't mention it either I didn't start this to have an argument but had hoped that it might prove helpful to people.
My personal feeling is that we all enjoy the waters of our coasts in our own way and rules are there for guidance and its up to us to try and work together.

An excellent notion if both parties join in the game?
 
No one is saying that Thames Barges are restricted in ability to manoeuvre and the regulation 9 (b) doesn't mention it either I didn't start this to have an argument but had hoped that it might prove helpful to people.
My personal feeling is that we all enjoy the waters of our coasts in our own way and rules are there for guidance and its up to us to try and work together.

Well , it's not proving helpfull, it's proving scary...

Frankly a 90 foot vessel which draws less than I do operating under power in a channel 1/3 of a mile wide is not a vessel I would consider that has a exemption to normal collision regs... But you seem to indicate that barge operators have been issued guidance to which none of the rest of us are party too, which indicates they should behave in a manner totally at odds with our expectations.

If barge operators are doing so, frankly they are idiots.

But it would entirely explain thistles behaviour on Saturday, and is a subject which needs to be understood.
 
I'm surprised at the apparent antagonism to Thames barges in this thread, is there a hidden agenda?
Barges are big, can't turn, stop or accelerate as quickly as a yacht, just give them a bit of room.
An analogy would be to think of sailing your yacht through a fleet of Optimists, the yacht needs more space.
I'm not making a criticism of Photodog's original post, he obviously had genuine cause for concern, just the reaction to Kevbert's explanation.
We are supposed to be doing this for FUN, not looking for opportunities to get upset.
 
Last edited:
Due to comments made on another thread I felt that it might be worthwhile putting the following facts on here regarding the handling of Thames Barges:

Firstly a vessels size increases by volume therefore a 90 foot vessel it’s nearer 6 times the size of a 30 foot one. Also barges weigh something in the region of a hundred tons.

Secondly although they have a shallow draft for their size this is counteracted by high windage, sometimes this means that to manoeuvre slowly the leeboards need to be lowered increasing draft by several feet.

Thirdly they have a very large turning circle and most of them have an engine to one side of centre restricting their ability to turn.Fourthly there is a very large blind spot directly in front of the bow.

In view of the above facts, discussions have taken place with the MCA who have asserted that Barges come under Rule 9 as a "vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway."

Rule 9

(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can
safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

As such when motoring in any such area Barges are required to keep as far to the starboard side of the channel as they can and maintain course and speed so that any vessels of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel can take appropriate action to avoid them.

In spite of this generally speaking as fellow sailors, Bargemen will try to avoid causing disruption to vessels sailing especially if they are doing something like beating up against wind and tide but in general we can’t be expected to know whether the other vessel will go beyond the channel before tacking so trying to slow down or turn would only create difficulty as the other craft could then tack across our bows and we might not be able to see them do so.

I skippered 'Kitty' for a season, which has the prop to starboard of the rudder. Any astern, had a tendancy to throw the barge quite quickly to port, which made mooring onto a marina pontoon very interesting.
 
I'm surprised at the apparent antagonism to Thames barges in this thread, is there a hidden agenda?
Barges are big, can't turn, stop or accelerate as quickly as a yacht, just give them a bit of room.
An analogy would be to think of sailing your yacht through a fleet of Optimists, the yacht needs more space.
I'm not making a criticism of Photodog's original post, he obviously had genuine cause for concern, just the reaction to Kevbert's explanation.
We are supposed to be doing this for FUN, not looking for opportunities to get upset.

Yes Dan it should be fun, I think we all agree on that.

The more serious point is - how do the wider sailing public know if the MCA have decided that TBs are 'special' case WRF to Colregs rule 9 and 34 in the Orwell. Where is the info published?


I am interested, not antagonistic.....
 
I'm feeling a bit guilty for carving up Thistle when it was under power a couple of weeks ago.

I thought 'there's a lovely old sailing boat, he obviously knows what he's doing and will throttle back a knot or two,'

Bad Dave.....slap on wrist!
 
I don't think this thread should be considered antagonistic to Thames barges per se. The majority of barge skippers are quite happy to abide by the col regs and are competent to handle their craft accordingly. However, there is one barge whose name always seems to crop up in these discussions....
 
I have had the pleasure of sailing on barges a couple of times, but didn't have the chance to take control. The vessels seemed enormous within the Blackwater an I felt I was on a VLCC at the time. I wouldn't go within a mile of a barge's bow if you paid me.
 
I love Thames barges, and we generally give them all the room they need... It's a real pleasure to see them on the water, and we always get some nice waving from the passengers....

But I was annoyed at Thistle, and I was concerned at the Op's post... On a typical weekend for us I will see the barges on several occasions..
 
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