terms and conditions- burnham yacht harbour

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Spankerwrap

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The new owners of our marina have just put out the annual fees for the 2004 season along with the new terms and conditions. Apart from the inevitable increase greater than the rate of inflation and the removal of an early payment discount, I have discovered two new clauses tucked away in the T&C's.

1. This states that should I wish to sell my boat, I am not allowed to put a for sale sign on the boat itself. Also, if I put the boat in the hands of a broker, I also have to offer it to the broker on the marina site as well.

and
2. If and when I sell my boat I have to give one percent of the sale price to the marina !


One would presume that, during the course of selling a boat, actions such as lifting the boat for survey work, and the rectification of any faults found would bring in welcome additional work to the Marina and they would benefit accordingly.

Also the marina has informed us that they will not refund any part of the annual berthing fee if the boat is sold through the year so one assumes they will get a double fee from the berth from the new berthholder when it is re-assigned.

It does seem that this additional charge is just profiteering against the helpless boat owner (again )

Is this legal ? Is this a common practice? If not, is there anything I can do? I have read through the RYA that there is talk of establishing a berth holders association but fear it will be too long in coming as I have to accept the terms and conditions and pay by the end of this month.

Comments/suggestions/sympathy welcome

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If you dont like it you'd best not sign it and go elsewhere - in a court of law you'd struggle to convince the court that it was an unfair contract which you didn't understand. You could always try marking up the berthing contract with some changes and sending it back - thats a valid route.

Of course if most of the berth holders felt like you and formed an action group refusing to sign up until the contract was changed then you'd probably get the result you really want.

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Caravan vs Boat

In caravan parks it is normal for this practice and I believe that Burnham has Caravan parks etc. Maybe there has been a cross-over of practice into the Marina contracts - making this potentially dangerous clause.

I would contact as many berth-holders as possible and make sure all are aware of it - as we all know many of us sign deals without reading all the print etc.

As to normal marina practices . work on boats is often controlled by the marina and you must offer first to them, or pay a fee for your guy to enter etc. But sales of boats are not normally subject to this blatant profiteering ....

I would be interested to know what benefits they will give or advantages such as free lifts for surveys / free berthing during sale period etc. etc. If so then maybe its no so bad - but I would be suprised if you get anything for this crass intrusion on your private boat and its disposal etc.

Get together and fight it .... befoe others get caught and you are stuck with a piece of paper that hangs you ...


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.qqbaltic.com/index.html>http://www.qqbaltic.com/index.html</A> For all those disbelievers ! /forums/images/icons/cool.gif
 
But, but, but *splutter, cough* giving 1% to the marina if you sell your boat - that's as good saying the marina own a 1% share in your boat. Outrageous, no?!!! /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif *splutter, froth, splutter* Unbelievable. Do other marinas ask for this? Blimey, I'm glad I don't have anything to do with them, a-swing mooring I shall go...

Sorry, I'm just so gobsmacked that they can ask for 1% the sale price - this can't possibly be legal. Definitely get some legalese advice.

*splutter, hic*


<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://kilkerr.members.easyspace.com/santateresa_pics.htm>Santa Teresa and other t'ings</A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by kilkerr1 on 08/03/2004 14:17 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
i am sure they have this watertight but part one you refer offering it to the on site broker. Does it bind you to his rate as he may charge from time to time? or does it spefcify a rate in the contract?

as far as i am aware you cannot be forced into signing a contract that binds you to another contract that you have no view of. you can therefore insist that the full contract for brokerage is agreed in advance. personally i would want to have the brokerage terms agreed, well actually i would tell them to sling it but working on the basis you have tried that route already you can insist that you are not going to sign something that is so vague.
secondly i would not agree to letting the yard have any percentage of the sale unless part of the brokerage fee only.

this sounds rapacious even amongst a business sector not known for their charity. tying you in to another contract binding you in with another group, them being a byword for unreliability and mendaciousness, sounds a little too much

<hr width=100% size=1>Beer. Source of and answer to all life's problems.
 
Calm yersel' lass, you'll be upset then to hear this?

The easy way around this is to take the boat somewhere else to complete the sale. I believe this is common practice to get round this onerous and unreasonable clause which I've seen before.

When you get close to the point of sale, just inform the potential buyer that any offer has to be made outside the marina (eg trial sail) and explain why. The yard cannot charge for viewing the boat.



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Various observations :

Are you on a yearly contract or is it the renewal of an existing contract? ie Is this a unilateral change to an existing contract and if so, are they offering anything in exchange?
Does the marina perform any service to justify its charge eg open the boat to prospective buyers in your absence?
Offering it to other than the broker of your choice seems to be a restrictive trade practice.

One idea is to carry out the sale on a two part basis: first year - sell a 50% share in your boat thereby enabling the future owner to get a foot in the door and complete the following year.

My knowledge of UK law is rusty but they would never be able to do this in France unless you were clearly on a one year contract non'renewable in which case they can propose whatever they like for the following year.

To me it seems like marinas in England are unfairly exploiting a scarce resource - the coast line on which they have been given a concession. If additional coast line is not available to allow competition there would appear to be abuse of an oligoply position.

At what stage do you say enough is enough. I have cited before what French motor cyclists did many years ago because of astronomical insurance costs : they formed a Federation and created their own insurance company. And a few rush hour go-slows of a few thousand motorbikers also meant that they soon obtained exoneration from road fund licenses.

<< I have read through the RYA that there is talk of establishing a berth holders association but fear it will be too long in coming >>

Talk of unfair berth prices has been going on for years so what is taking so long for the RYA to act. Perhaps the grass-root members should set detailed management objectives to the executive.


John


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Re: Caravan vs Boat

My brother had a mobile at Burham years ago, sounds very like similar terms, only missing one is there was a maximum age limit as well, is this for next year !!!!


Wonder what will happen when other marina's learn of this good money earner.


Brian

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Re: Caravan vs Boat

You got it - a lot say max 10 years - because insurance cos don't like older.

Oh the other bit is actually worse - as most caravan parks say that you must sell the van to them -NOT to outsiders. Mine I had to buy from Park and unless I take it off park - must sell back to them.

BUT the park I am in is very good and they do not have max age on van. The boss is a great friend and he has really looked after me and my russian lass etc .... his club has one of the best sunday roasts I have eaten in years .... and the beer's cheap.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.qqbaltic.com/index.html>http://www.qqbaltic.com/index.html</A> For all those disbelievers ! /forums/images/icons/cool.gif
 
Boatyards traditionally charged or expected 1% if a boat was sold in their yard - my yard tells me its for uncovering, covering, opening, closing, keeping an eye on the viewer etc - which is not totally unreasonally (depending on the price of course) My yard expect a thank you if the baot is sold in their yard - I don't think they enforce it and its not in their terms etc but I think is the origins of the marina ideas

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I am with Premier Marinas, and by and large they seem reasonably fair. But when I asked about moving my boat to another marina, I was told that I wouldn't get a refund on my annual payment unless they re-let the berth (and how likely is that?). So this year I am paying monthly which means that if I move/sell the boat, I will just stop the DD. After all, they can only evict me for non payment. It was 'only' an extra £100 or so, and I wanted to keep my options open. Perhaps you might consider the same?

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Re: Caravan vs Boat

Nigel - I have just sold my boat, and the boatyard has said I owe them 1%. I have never seen their terms and conditions, so was unaware at the time of contracting with them of this onerous condition. I presume that as I was not informed of the condition at the time I entered into the contract - it is therefore not a term of the agreement.

Eevn If I had signed an agreement - and failed to spot this cluase - hiden on the reverse - that surely comes under the the unfair contract agreement thingy. In any case - I need to get the new owner to launch the boat before I argue!!!!

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Gillingham Marina also has these clauses. Since I have no intention of selling my boat it doesn't bother me.

What DOES bother me is the fact that no work may be carried out on board by an outside contractor. It must be carried out by THEIR workshop. I once asked for an estimate for a relatively straightforward job, and I nearly chocked. As well as being very expensive, they wanted to charge me for totally unnecessary tasks/items.
So when I got a decent estimate I just sailed Yanita to that yard and had the job carried out there. Still resent the clause though.

It is the main reason why I'm not renewing my berth there. Got 2 offers at the moment, expect to make my mind up by the end of the week. It seems the only option - vote with your feet.

<hr width=100% size=1>Fair winds.
If not... reef early!
 
Totally agree. I refused to go into a marina this winter because it refused to allow an outside contractor to work in their yard, and I needed some work to be done.

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"1. This states that should I wish to sell my boat, I am not allowed to put a for sale sign on the boat itself. ".

To me that doesn't sound totally unreasonable. There could be a security angle to this - if you put a for sale sign on your boat you are giving anyone that turns up at the marina a good excuse for climbing onto your boat and having a nose around - including a potential thief.

"Also, if I put the boat in the hands of a broker, I also have to offer it to the broker on the marina site as well." - That seems a bit more restrictive but doesn't altogether surprise me - many marinas have rules that you can't use outside contractors to work on your boat or if you do you have to pay £x to the marina. Personally I don't like these kind of restrictive practices and they don't seem fair but unfortunately they are common...

"2. If and when I sell my boat I have to give one percent of the sale price to the marina". This is the one that shocked me, 1% is a reasonable amount of money if they do absolutely nothing to help sell the boat. If they are doing things like handing out keys to your buyers and keeping an eye on them while you are not there then perhaps they can claim something though. Phone them up and ask them what work they will do to help you with the sale in return for the 1%.


"Also the marina has informed us that they will not refund any part of the annual berthing fee if the boat is sold through the year". Ok its an annual contract so no surprise there. Usually you can pay a bit (or lot...) more for a monthly berth which doesn't involve this committment. I would imagine that the reality is that if you bought a new boat they might well allow you to pay just the difference in price (assuming the new boat is bigger). Yes they get paid twice if they let the berth to someone else but the contract is basically a committment for the year and I doubt any lawyer is going to get you a refund on that one.


Chris



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Sorry Becky, I think that you are wrong. I suspect that you have agreed to take the berth for a year - if this is so, then you are liable for one year, and if do not pay for one year, whether you are there or not, you are in breach of contract.

Whether they do anything about it if you stop your DD is another matter

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Someone in the office at BYH, once explained the benefits of being a berth-holder there.......

1/ An invitation to the summer barbeque

2/ A christmas card.

I'm on the blackwater, and I have a gas barbecue with the money I've saved.

Enjoy!

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Intresting,I spoke to them about a club trip to BYH in the summer but they will not take bookings as they have let all there visitors berths to residents but if i call them on the day there might be room for us.Not a lot of good if we turn up and there is no room at the inn.

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The situation you describe seems to becoming common - no visitors berths, just those of residents who happen to be away for the night. As a result, some sailors are refusing to tell the marina when they are coming back so stopping them making money in this way.




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