John_P
Well-Known Member
Very sad to see her wrecked, I think it was this ship we saw off Portland / Weymouth a couple of Saturdays ago.
Tall ship Astrid lost in Oysterhaven Cork today
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Vega1447
Well-Known Member
I expect that the Master was under some "pressure" to take the inshore route all right - but unfortunately the responsibility is his.
Even the owners can't tell him how to navigate the ship though they can sack him I suppose.
prv
Well-Known Member
Mariner69
Well-Known Member
On one of the videos it looks as though the anchor remains in the hawse.
Is there any record of her dropping her anchors when the engine stopped?
It can buy time if nothing else.
Is there any record of her dropping her anchors when the engine stopped?
It can buy time if nothing else.
Rum_Pirate
Well-Known Member
I agree, why wouldn't one drop all the anchors.
Surely they could have held her off?
PS depends what type of anchor and the type of bottom.
Capt Popeye
Well-Known Member
A terrible event, by any standard, good job no lives lost.
But, correct me if I am wrong here?
Is there not a Tug / Motor vessel near enough to offer a 'tow off' or even ' a 'holding position' long enough for help / assistance to arrive?
Was there even a Pan Pan or Distress call put out by the ships master? as if it was being filmed / videoed before grounding, what type of vessel were the filmers on?
Is now a situation where the 'lifeboats' are to small / underpowered to offer any real help to the bigger ships / boats and concentrate on 'life saving of Yachts and Surfers / swimmers'; possibly speed and cheaper running costs provided by Ribs etc?
I ask as in the Video a Larger Lifeboat is seen assisting in the recovery of personnel
Capt Popeye
Well-Known Member
Would not the weight / drag of anchors slow down any wind blown drift and possibly cause the ship to head the wind so reducing any wind blown beam drift?
poss allowing more time for help / assistance to arrive?
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
I don't believe there has ever been a position where Lifeboats were powerful enough to hold a vessel of this size in position. All the Lifeboats that I am familiar with are designed to be fast to reduce the time to rescue. The big Aruns were not so powerful to counter such drag by wind and current on a 100' vessel, maybe on a fine day they could. However, their power was to punch into big seas and wind and get to the casualty for rescue purposes. The Severn class I understand is the most powerful at around 1200 HP each engine, which is a lot, but not much when faced with a big, drifting vessel. However, I am more than happy to be corrected.
Rum_Pirate
Well-Known Member
I presume that there will be an official inquiry.
Who would be undertaking that and how would one get a copy of the findings of the report?
Who would be undertaking that and how would one get a copy of the findings of the report?
westernman
Well-Known Member
The Stadamsterdam full rigged clipper ship (which is considerably bigger than Astrid) has a 750KW engine (about 1000HP). This is enough to propel the ship at 11 knots. I would also expect that ship to be able to make headway under engine power alone directly into a force 6 wind.
Therefore I think a Severn class lifeboat should be more than enough to tow Astrid in against the force 5 conditions which were present at the time.
The Arun class has about 900HP. I would have thought that would be sufficient as well.
oldvarnish
Well-Known Member
From memory, the coast thereabouts in pretty steep-to. In a F6 wind on the beam, and given the windage of such a vessel, it will be no time at all before she's on the rocks.
I've sailed on Dutch Tall Ships, but not this one. The standards of seamanship amongst the full-time crews were amongst the highest I've ever seen.
I very much doubt this was a failure of captaincy.
Sometimes we can all be overtaken by events when at sea, and my guess is that's exactly what happened here.
lpdsn
Well-Known Member
There will almost certainly be an MCIB report. Don't expect a great deal from it; to say they are not in the same league as MAIB is an understatement.
It will be in their website. www.mcib.ie - their one saving grace is that they publish the responses from those involved saying what a rubbish report it is, so you get to make up your own mind having seen several different points of view.
Seajet
...
It's all very well for us to sit in our armchairs and say what we would have done, but this is a far cry from the Costa Concordia, and skippers of tall ships tend to be highly qualifified and experienced - Gerry will have something to say about that !
My only question would be whether the lifeboats and other mobo's around were too busy picking up the crew to save Astrid with a tow ?
My only question would be whether the lifeboats and other mobo's around were too busy picking up the crew to save Astrid with a tow ?
Mariner69
Well-Known Member
Taking another vessel in tow is not easy and takes up quite a lot of sea space due to lee drift from the wind when passing the tow. Add in a tidal stream...........
Using vessels of similar size, designed to take each other in tow with specially designed gear and large crews about 30 men/women, small warships about 800 tonnes deadweight, takes 30 minutes or so when all the gear has been laid out and both crews are fully worked up and with line throwing apparatus. Try doing that with an untrained crew; and very few, if any, non-military crews exercise towing.
An approximation (rough) of the bollard pull can be made by dividing the brake horse power by 100 so 1510 BHP engine would give a pull power of about 15 tonnes. For ASTRID I would want 20 tonnes minimum to be sure of moving her safely.
It was a successful rescue, what mattered was saved! Congratulations to the rescuers.
Using vessels of similar size, designed to take each other in tow with specially designed gear and large crews about 30 men/women, small warships about 800 tonnes deadweight, takes 30 minutes or so when all the gear has been laid out and both crews are fully worked up and with line throwing apparatus. Try doing that with an untrained crew; and very few, if any, non-military crews exercise towing.
An approximation (rough) of the bollard pull can be made by dividing the brake horse power by 100 so 1510 BHP engine would give a pull power of about 15 tonnes. For ASTRID I would want 20 tonnes minimum to be sure of moving her safely.
It was a successful rescue, what mattered was saved! Congratulations to the rescuers.
Capt Popeye
Well-Known Member
Ahoy there Mariner69
Yep you is possibly stating the right Text Book stuff on here, but -
In an Emergency tis, i'd suggest, worth what you can, to assist and delay the Ship coming to grief!
Might be that it was decided that it was too dangerous for RNLI to assist, or not insured to do so?
I cannot speak from Naval Text Books but from experience on Thames with Police Launch's who used to take on 80 ft dumb barges with ease if an emergency arose and Fishing Vessels who often pass lines across one another or to Yachts in distress who required assistance.
Ah but any inquiry might divulge what happened, including any Call for help or declaring that she was being blown onto the Lee shore?
Yep you is possibly stating the right Text Book stuff on here, but -
In an Emergency tis, i'd suggest, worth what you can, to assist and delay the Ship coming to grief!
Might be that it was decided that it was too dangerous for RNLI to assist, or not insured to do so?
I cannot speak from Naval Text Books but from experience on Thames with Police Launch's who used to take on 80 ft dumb barges with ease if an emergency arose and Fishing Vessels who often pass lines across one another or to Yachts in distress who required assistance.
Ah but any inquiry might divulge what happened, including any Call for help or declaring that she was being blown onto the Lee shore?
prv
Well-Known Member
Suggesting that the RNLI are "not insured" to attempt dangerous rescues is absurd.
If the reason not to tow was that it was too dangerous, it will have been a simple judgement of the worth of the vessel against the life and limb of the rescuers. And the RNLI's purpose has always been to rescue people, which they did. Recovering property is a bonus which they will undertake if convenient.
Note that the US equivalent absolutely never recover property, as a matter of policy to discourage people from calling them except in dire emergency. They'll rescue you, but you'll lose your boat.
I can believe that Mariner's half-hour could be abbreviated somewhat in an emergency, especially if the tow vessel was pre-prepared en route to the scene and the casualty vessel was prepared to accept some minor damage (tow wires wiping off ventilator stacks etc). But he's dead right that towing a five or six hundred ton ship is not like chucking a warp to your mate on another yacht - or even a rubbish barge.
Pete
Mariner69
Well-Known Member
This is not text book quoting but practical experience; without reference to my laminated cheat sheet that I used to have in my pocket for the task.
Thirty minutes is a swept up team but I have seen it take hours thankfully in deep water well clear of immediate danger and with the towed vessel capable of using it's motor if necessary; exercising.
As said, the thing that mattered was the saving of life and that was a success.
Seajet
...
There are plenty of humans but not many tall ships !
I'd have tried towing her or getting her pointed out even with my 22' boat, or at least taking an anchor out or passing a line to a bigger boat; I can only assume there were no such large boats / small ships around ?
I'd have tried towing her or getting her pointed out even with my 22' boat, or at least taking an anchor out or passing a line to a bigger boat; I can only assume there were no such large boats / small ships around ?
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
That could be quite a crass statement Seajet but I doubt you meant saving the ship should have been a priority. Tallships can always be built, it was not worth an attempt at saving if the available resources only had time to focus on rescue of people.
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Seajet
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BlowingOldBoots,
of course I was deadly serious !
The sad fact is though, not many square riggers get built nowadays, with the honourable exception of ships like the Royalist and Grand Turk.
Anyone crewing such vessels is probably a benefit to humanity, but to see the other, expendable side of the coin, just visit Crawley !
of course I was deadly serious !
The sad fact is though, not many square riggers get built nowadays, with the honourable exception of ships like the Royalist and Grand Turk.
Anyone crewing such vessels is probably a benefit to humanity, but to see the other, expendable side of the coin, just visit Crawley !