Tacking in narrow channels and congested waters.

[Mike21]

Re: I do it...

You always quote power gives way to sail,you seem to suggest tacking up congested narrow channels deliberately creating collision situations is a sailors right, but then you would be breaching rule 2, which takes precedent over rule 18. Luckily it appears most sailors do seem to obey rule 2

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[l'escargot]

Re: I do it...

I think you should:

1 Re read my post

2 Re read rule two

3 Stop generalising

and accept that some colregs exist even though you don't like them.

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[Mike21]

Re: I do it...

Done that before posting, still don't see where you think you get the rights from.


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[peterb]

Re: I do it...

Actually, Rule 18 starts "Except where Rules 9, 10 and 13 otherwise require: ......". Rule 9 covers narrow channels.

Although Colregs don't define narrow channels, there have been court decisions along the lines that any buoyed channel is automatically a narrow channel.

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[l'escargot]

Re: I do it...

If you had in fact read the post correctly you would see the actual quote is : "In some circumstances a boat under power must keep out of the way of the sailing boat"

This is different from your "always"

I get the the rights from Rule 18 and acknowledge that there are exceptions by using "in some circumstances".

Rule 2 (your favourite) starts by sayng "Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules ..." which indicates that Rule 18 must be complied with, but it then goes on to refer to "special circumstances" and necessary "departure from these Rules " which is the basis for me not saying always.

You seem to be saying that a power boat never has to give way to a sailing boat - where do you think you get those rights from?

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[l'escargot]

Re: I do it...

And that is why I do not say that power always give way to sail, there are exceptions. Conversely there is nothing in Rule 9 that does away with Rule 18 totally in a narrow channel.

I think it unlikely any court decision would succeed in classifying every buoyed channel a narrow channel in all circumstances - If a 30 foot powerboat ran down a 20 foot yacht in a channel that was half a mile between buoys and sixty foot deep (such as in the Solent), I don't think the defence that he shouldn't have been tacking in a narrow channel would hold water. It might though if the powerboat was replaced with the QM2.

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[roger]

Col Regs

They do say the stand on vessel must keep her course and speed. To me this means you must not tack into the way of someone else - the act of tacking is an alteration of course.

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[l'escargot]

Re: Col Regs

It's not that simple. Nothing in the colregs insists that a vessel puts itself at danger by maintaining course and speed, just so another boat can get past. If you wanted to overtake another boat under power that would put itself aground if it did not alter course, would you expect it to maintain that course or would you allow it to manoeuver?

Usually a sailing boat tacks at the edge of the channel when it runs out of water. So by virtue of it being limited by its draught another vessel must keep clear anyway. There is also the argument that a sailing boat is limited in its ability to manoeuver because it cannot sail into the wind, which also gives other vessels cause to keep clear.

It is seldom the case that one rule in isolation can dictate the action in every circumstance. Most of the debate over colregs is caused by such selective use.

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[roger]

Re: Col Regs

l'escargot. in open water the ROW sailing boat must hold her course and speed so as to be predictable for the give way boat. This is fairly simple.
In a narrow channel the sailing boat will typically have tacked several times in sight of the give way boat. I'm not at all sure that the sailing boat is allowed by the col regs to tack so as to put itself on a collision course with another boat that is in sight.

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[halcyon]

Re: Col Regs

Am I getting old, or does not the reg say power driven vessels shall give way to sail, unless covered by narrow channel limitations. Also I do not remember stand on vessel being mentioned in the reg.
Or is it memory loss??


Brian

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[l'escargot]

Re: Col Regs

I don't see that anything in my post challenges either assertion.

I think each boat must take into account the others actions and depending on those actions, various colregs will come into play.

The only issue I would have is defining "collision course". I wouldn't necessarily say that a sailing boat making a clearly visible tack at a reasonable distance that would cause a power boat to make a slight, totally safe, variation in course in order to go round it, is putting "itself on a collision course with another boat that is in sight". Boats all operate with various restrictions and it is not unreasonable for others to allow for those restrictions - indeed that is the purpose of some colregs.

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