Tacking and severe weather helm...Help

[fejaouk]

I am fairly new to yachting and bought a Hurley 27. However I am having major issues with learning to sail this boat. Firstly all I can say is the boat is a bitch to tack, I normally bear off to get a bit of speed and turn her into the wind, however invariably she turns back onto the previous tack and, I've only ever had a few sucessful tacks, normally I have to gybe to change course. I've even tried to tack her fast into the wind, but again she turns back onto her original course.

The second problem is severe weather helm, so much so to keep the boat on a port tack the other day, I had the tiller hard over to port mostly just to keep her on a steady course. I may be new to yaching, but I know something is not quite right here. I know the sails are old and not holding their best shape, but it cant cause this much of a problem and abeit she is a long keel yacht and heavy, but I thought she would be slow to tack, but not impossible as I have been finding.

Please can anyone give me any suggestions, so that I can enjoy my sailing and not just battling with the boat.


Fejaouk

 

[Spuddy]

OK, I'll start. Could be mast raked too far aft. sight it up against others when you are in marina/moored to see if it's out by much. In meantime could try keeping jib/genoa sheeted until you are clearly round on other tack - backing it like that will help push you round. Could ask someone with more experience to come out with you. Us saily types are helpful and generous.

 

[Anonymous]

Sounds as though you are trying to sail her too close to the wind. Don't try to sail so close to the wind that you are not making good way through the water. To tack, as you clearly understand, you need plenty of speed but that shouldn't be a last minute thing, you should be making good speed on each tack. Then put the helm hard enough over to get the bow round and away you go.

Weather helm is usually due to too much canvas. Try reefing right down and gradually increase canvas while you are getting to grips with the boat. If you are using full rudder you need to put in a couple of reefs, I would guess, unless you are far too close to the wind all the time.

 

[mikemonty]

When I bought my first boat I occasionally forgot to loosen the topping lift. Took me a while to realise what seemed to be happening.
With the topping lift still on, the mainsail had a really deep luff, and would force the boat to windward, but not allow her to point high enough, fast enough, to get through the eye of the wind. (I guess that the mainsail would stop drawing before we got to the point of the tack).
Is that possibly the solution?

Mike

 

[davierobb]

I have also suffered similar problems. These were mostly solved by,

Purchasing a new set of sail,
Reefing down early, after reefing we usually maintain the same speed and the boat feels a lot more comfortable.
Use the sails to balance boat. If the weather helm is pulling you into the wind reduce main, if WH is pushing you downwind then reduce gib. This seems to work on my own boat but I found that increasing the gib on Jaguar 27 had the opposite effect, ie it pulled the bow into the wind as opposed to pushing it downwind.
tighten rigging.
make sure main and gib halyards are fully tensioned.
learn how to use the gib when tacking, you can back it to pull you round.

Lastly, some instruction on your own boat may be worth the money.

All boats are different but most can be tamed with a bit of practice and some patience, enjoy.

 

[fireball]

I'll second the sail balance

we can get quite a bit of weather helm - even with the mainsail completely freed ... so need to reduce the genoa a little to move the center of effort forward. Reducing heel also helps significantly ...

 

[CPD]

Your tacking problem I think relates to the speed you are carrying into the tack. Hold the genoa in place as you turn and release it only when it begins to flap, then whack it over to the other side as fast as you can. As the other chaps have said, you do need to be carrying a degree of speed in order to give yourself momentum. As the boat turns, there is a point where it loses drive completely, and if there isnt enough momentum, and you cant get the genoa over quickly enough, then you wont tack and you will have the problem you have.

[ QUOTE ]
The second problem is severe weather helm, so much so to keep the boat on a port tack the other day, I had the tiller hard over to port mostly just to keep her on a steady course. I may be new to yaching, but I know something is not quite right here. I know the sails are old and not holding their best shape, but it cant cause this much of a problem and abeit she is a long keel yacht and heavy, but I thought she would be slow to tack, but not impossible as I have been finding.

Please can anyone give me any suggestions, so that I can enjoy my sailing and not just battling with the boat.


Fejaouk

[/ QUOTE ]

The second problem to me indicates that either you are overcanvassed, or more likely, the sails arent balanced. Generally, the main will try to turn you into the wind, the genoa will do the opposite. If the sails arent reasonably balanced, then you will have to use the tiller to compensate in order to sail in a straight line - very inefficient and very slow. Try reefing either the genoa or the main, and you will see the effect on the tiller. Good luck and dont give up /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif !!!!

 

[colvic987]

I had the same problem when i first got my boat, i had great problems in getting her to tack and she would want to back the opposite way, if i was not concentrating enough on steering. i ended up checking all the rigging and tensioning up the forestay and backstay, and checking all the shrouds . i ended up with a completely different boat.

a good book to have is illustrated sail and rig tuning by fernhurst books
www.fernhurstbooks.co.uk
well worth the money...

 

[Lakesailor]

I sailed singlehanded a lot and on Windermere, if nothing else, you do a lot of tacking.
If you are finding you can't round up properly do as suggested by others, but in spades.
Go about and don't let go the headsail sheet until it is well backed, this should be pushing you round. It has the advantage of older, smaller boats that the normal tendancy for the sheets to catch on the lower stays (I don't know why) is overcome by the headsail whipping over when the sheet is released.
I found that by using this as my normal technique I went from floundering in stays to neat, quick tacks with the headsail filling and driving straight away.

Weather helm isn't my strong point as I've never had a boat that suffered from it.

 

[William_H]

Backing the jib is when the wind hits the jib on the innside of the curve formed when the jib is tight on the wrong side (windward side).
I use this technique to depart from my swing mooring. It has a great turning power on the boat when it is not moving through the water.
This is what happens when you tack the boat but don't change the jib sheets over. It pushes the bow around once the bow has passed head to wind. The way you want to go.
If you sheet the jib on the new side too early this same force tries to push the bow back to head to wind. It stops you tacking.

So it is critical just when you change jib sheets from one side to the other. (more so on hard to tack boats like catamarans) Do not change the jib sheets until the main is set and driving on the new tack.
Any sort of wave or swell can make tacking more difficult by stopping the momentum near head to wind.

As for heavy weather helm. Yes almost certainly overpowered. Most boats do not sail happily with large heel on the hull. Certainly not 45 degrees. Just consider that at this angle the rudder is only 50% effective the other 50% trying to lift the stern. Likewise the keel becomes less efective by increasing leeway.
Reduction of sail area is necessary by reefing and jib reduction. Often smaller jib will help a lot even though the forces are reduced up front.

In stronger winds it is vital that the jib is sheeted very tight and that the forestay is also very tight to reduce sag to leeward.
Forestay is tiightened by tightening the backstay.
The middle of the mast also needs to be pulled forward (mast bend) to take some opf the camber out of the mainsail. This is done by tightening the intermediate forestay or forward inner sidestays. I assume it is a mast head rig. About 8inches middle forward should be acheivable.
Of course you also need to pull the outhaul for the main very tight and haul on the main halyard or even fit and use a Cunningham flattener. This is where the bottom 6inches or so of the mainsail at the luff is pulled down hard to fold away a small section of the foot and luff.

Every thing on hard is the go.

If you can't cope with main mostly sheeted very hard then you need a reef. ie frequent easing of the mainsheet is a sign that you need to reef.
Lastly as suggested you may be pointing too high. It is common to point into the wind to reduce heel when in blow. This can however become a bad habit as the boat tends to slow down and you lose control. The boat needs to acheive about 4.5 knots into the wind. If you have a log (speedometer) then it is usefull when conditions get blowy to ensure that you are going fast enough. Too fast like 5.5 knots means you are not close enough to the wind while any less than 4.5 means you are too close. Numbers may vay from boat to boat. Too slow means you have less control.

If the boat has always been hard to steer in a blow then you may consider increasing the area of the rudder. If possible. good luck olewill

 

[john_morris_uk]

Can you fill in your Bio a bit - or perhaps give us a hint as to what area of the country you are in? I am sure that there are people on here who would freely give you an hour or two - me included, but I can't offer as you might be in Scotland for all I know...

 

[simonfraser]

severe weather & a bitch to tack, if i am reading you correct, you can tack allright, but she flips straight back to the origional course, (my trimaran can do the same, but sails extremely well)

i agree with the others, too much main sail power, so tack, as you go through the wind let the main off completely, traveller & sheet
now you should have the opposite problem, i.e. she bears away too far and you can't hold her with the tiller
if that is the case, all you need is sheet the mainsail in a bit to balance the boat

it's all about balancing the sails, keep trying !

 

[boatmike]

I know the Hurleys reasonably well. Had big brother to yours, the 30. Spuddy is on the right track. It's easy to get the centre of effort of the sail plan too far aft and have severe weather helm. Firstly your mast foot has I think, several positions fore and aft. Move it as far forward as possible. Then set the mast dead upright with a spirit level. You may, if the boat has always been rigged this way need to shorten the forestay to achieve this. Then set the fore and aft stays up bar tight. A soggy forestay alone is enough to cause the problem. Try again. When sailing in a good wind, reef the main before the genoa. With roller reefing it's easier to do the opposite, which will again cause weather helm. Also avoid sheeting the main in too tight when tacking, but sheet the genoa in fairly hard to flatten it. Once solved she is a delightful pocket cruiser so don't give up. If you get somewhere, but still not satisfied you need new sails. Welcome to the sailing club. You will never have a full wallet again!

 

[cjepearson]

Have you made sure that the traveller is centred before you try to tack? If you are overpressed, maybe you dropped the traveller down to leeward, thus making it very difficult to tack. On my boat, a similar type to yours(a jaguar 27) it is impossible to tack with the mainsheet traveller out of position. The main looses all drive long before head to wind, and the boat just stalls.