T2L Document after Brexit?

[Caladh]

My application for a T2L goes in the post this morning. I was most grateful for the CA website advice on filling in the application form, as it is far from obvious. Hopefully in a few days I shall receive the new document.

Also clear and decent advice re T2L from the RYA about how to fill it in etc

 

[maxi77]

T he point about notarisation is it shows the documents are a legally true record. As ever in these uncertain days every bit of certainty is valuable. Our EU chums often pay much more heed to documents that are notarised.

 

[nortada]

Mac and Nortada - I would just have the proof of your vessel being in the EU 27 on Brexit day, notarised or just signed by the Marina saying it was in the marina.

My thoughts are ONLY for documentation at the eventual sale of the yacht, when VAT is always an potential objection. This just attempts to knock that objection on the head.

Apologies for my misunderstanding.

I tend to be a bit touchy where lawyers are concerned

Always ready to take the money but not always ready to front up with a result.

Back to thread, whilst we all know a T2L is a red- herring, officialdom likes bits of paper so if a T2L could swing it for you in the confusion post Brexit; go get one, say I.

A bit of whimsy, knowing the present system for getting a T2L from HMRC, I suspect you could get one for a non-existent vessel.

Another tack - DIY T2L

Just a bit of imagination with a printer and any completed T2L? We know there is no data audit to verify your page 4 of a T2L.

Hey presto a new T2L and more insurance for the future

VAT and Brexit.

Like many Brits, my boat is currently in the EU and I anticipate it will be there on Brexit Day.

As it was bought new, we have a complete document audit trail, including a Bill of Sale (from the French Builders, who imported her in the UK from La Rochelle), indicating that VAT was paid in the UK at the point of sale.

One day, hopefully well into the furure, we anticipate she will be returning to the UK. If this is 3 years after Brexit what will be the VAT position?

Could we further muddy the water and have a last cruise in Moroccan waters before tearfully, heading north.

I anticipate as she sails back into her UK home port (Titchmarsh Marina?) and moors up alongside our UK boat nobody will show any interest - other than to take the money! We will probably go on to sell the UK boat but continue sail the one back from Portugal.

When the boat comes to be sold, there will be evidence UK VAT paid but no evidence of her overseas cruising history so I anticipate VAT would not become an issue?

Thoughts?

 

[nortada]

T he point about notarisation is it shows the documents are a legally true record. As ever in these uncertain days every bit of certainty is valuable. Our EU chums often pay much more heed to documents that are notarised.

Agree - but when you have the original document, why would you want a copy, notarised or not?

Notarising a copy doesn’t confirm the validity of the original document, just the authenticity of the copy.

Now if you intend to give a copy to those requesting confirmation of VAT status to retain - different issue but they could then initial their copy as having had sight of the original?

 

[macd]

Like many Brits, my boat is currently in the EU and I anticipate it will be there on Brexit Day.

As it was bought new, we have a complete document audit trail, including a Bill of Sale (from the French Builders, who imported her in the UK from La Rochelle), indicating that VAT was paid in the UK at the point of sale.

One day, hopefully well into the furure, we anticipate she will be returning to the UK. If this is 3 years after Brexit what will be the VAT position?

Could we further muddy the water and have a last cruise in Moroccan waters before tearfully, heading north.

Thoughts?

No need for further thoughts. Just read post #10.

As to your "who's going to know" suggestion: probably no-one. However, the procedure for entering the UK from the EU27 may be more exacting than it is now, so perhaps there's some risk.

P.S. Should you wish to ask NIRU yourself, their contact details can be found on this page: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/hmrcs-national-import-reliefs-unit-niru

 

[Chris_Robb]

Apologies for my misunderstanding.

I tend to be a bit touchy where lawyers are concerned

Always ready to take the money but not always ready to front up with a result.

Back to thread, whilst we all know a T2L is a red- herring, officialdom likes bits of paper so if a T2L could swing it for you in the confusion post Brexit; go get one, say I.

A bit of whimsy, knowing the present system for getting a T2L from HMRC, I suspect you could get one for a non-existent vessel.

Another tack - DIY T2L

Just a bit of imagination with a printer and any completed T2L? We know there is no data audit to verify your page 4 of a T2L.

Hey presto a new T2L and more insurance for the future

VAT and Brexit.

Like many Brits, my boat is currently in the EU and I anticipate it will be there on Brexit Day.

As it was bought new, we have a complete document audit trail, including a Bill of Sale (from the French Builders, who imported her in the UK from La Rochelle), indicating that VAT was paid in the UK at the point of sale.

One day, hopefully well into the furure, we anticipate she will be returning to the UK. If this is 3 years after Brexit what will be the VAT position?

Could we further muddy the water and have a last cruise in Moroccan waters before tearfully, heading north.

I anticipate as she sails back into her UK home port (Titchmarsh Marina?) and moors up alongside our UK boat nobody will show any interest - other than to take the money! We will probably go on to sell the UK boat but continue sail the one back from Portugal.

When the boat comes to be sold, there will be evidence UK VAT paid but no evidence of her overseas cruising history so I anticipate VAT would not become an issue?

Thoughts?

When you return, you will be flying a Q flag for customs. You may need to show your documentation to the Customs. As far as I am aware the customs have never ever enforced the 3 years export rule as most can simply claim to be repatriating chattels. So just show the VAT receipt - you don't need anything else.

When you sell the boat in the UK you will finally loose Unions Goods status. The buyer may want to retain that status, so do the sale hand over in France. If you are not worried, its a normal sale in the UK.

I just cannot imagine the HMRC declaring that because we are in the Union at brexit - we loose our UK VAT. I think there would be a riot. But at the end of the day, you can easily expunge from your documents any trace of the yacht being in the Union,, Just hide them.

 

[GTom]

Now the deal seems to be ratified, I wonder it it's next Friday (impossible for me) or the end of the transition period will be the day which has to be spent in EU waters?

I assume no more T2L's will be issued after 31 January.

 

[Tim Good]

They may.... If you’re application is received prior to Jan 31st. You may as well complete it and send it in regardless.

 

[Graham376]

Goods such as our boats are still in free movement within the EU and as far as I have been able to find out, everything remains the same during the transition period so, T2L should still be available. When we actually exit in a year, I suspect the T2Ls will become invalid as UK based boats will no longer be in free circulation.

 

[GTom]

Goods such as our boats are still in free movement within the EU and as far as I have been able to find out, everything remains the same during the transition period so, T2L should still be available. When we actually exit in a year, I suspect the T2Ls will become invalid as UK based boats will no longer be in free circulation.

Question is how the status change is implemented. One thing is sure: if you buy something in the UK prior to the end of the transition period and "export it" to France, there won't be means to reclaim the UK VAT and France won't levy VAT on the goods you bring over the channel. Boat/Vehicle status might be a bit different though, they could define any point in time for the status and levy/not levy the VAT only after the transition period.

Found this one, if it's correct, then even T2L's should be issued after 31 January. T2L plus a marina bill from France should satisfy the Croat and Portuguese customs...

the UK will continue to participate in the EU Customs Union and the Single Market.

 

[Graham376]

The definition of theT2L is below. When we leave the EU, we won't be part of the Inter-European community so will those issued while we are, still be valid in Portugal and Croatia when we're not? I think those with older boats and lost VAT paperwork, should get to work with their dtp.

T2L Definition: The T2L document is a customs document used in the European Union as a proof of the Inter-European community character of the export / import. The exporter, importer and the country the shipment is loaded from and delivered to have to belong to the EU member countries in order for this document to be issued. The T2L document is certified by the customs authorities of the country the products are loaded from and the importer needs to receive it in order to start the import procedure.

 

[GTom]

T2L follows the goods and the goods status remains EU VAT paid if they stay in the EU. Boats won't be the only goods travelling longer after 31 December 23:59 albeit raw fish shipments will be likely offloaded long before we tie up in Split.

 

[greeny]

Are all UK vehicle owners who will be in the EU 27 on the day of BREXIT be doing the same things we are? Think heavy goods wagons, ships, cars, vans, airplanes.
All "Modes of Transport" under the rules.
Are all owners of foreign vehicles in the UK on Brexit day going through this process as well.
I doubt it very much.
My understanding is that the rules regarding vat are common across all "modes of transport" in the EU.
So how is this only going to be applied to ONLY boats and small craft?
I agree that taking all the necessary actions regarding paperwork and history trails are sensible precautions but we should all have that in place already shouldn't we? With the exception maybe of the T2L.

 

[Graham376]

My understanding is that the rules regarding vat are common across all "modes of transport" in the EU.
So how is this only going to be applied to ONLY boats and small craft?
I agree that taking all the necessary actions regarding paperwork and history trails are sensible precautions but we should all have that in place already shouldn't we? With the exception maybe of the T2L.

Foreign cars and motor bikes are already treated very differently to boats in Portugal so no common rules about modes of transport there. The definition of a T2L is above (#31) but it's being used by Croatia and Portugal as proof that VAT has been paid, which it isn't designed for. After Brexit, UK goods will no longer be free to move as they are now so, I suspect the advice given in some places that a T2L will be enough proof, is wrong.

 

[GTom]

Foreign cars and motor bikes are already treated very differently to boats in Portugal so no common rules about modes of transport there. The definition of a T2L is above (#31) but it's being used by Croatia and Portugal as proof that VAT has been paid, which it isn't designed for. After Brexit, UK goods will no longer be free to move as they are now so, I suspect the advice given in some places that a T2L will be enough proof, is wrong.

T2L alone will be very unlikely sufficient. Along with a French marina bill from the 31 December hopefully...

 

[Graham376]

T2L alone will be very unlikely sufficient. Along with a French marina bill from the 31 December hopefully...

There are separate issues here (a) has VAT been paid on the boat? (b) is the boat in EU waters when we exit, to maintain its status?

(b) The simplest bit - if it's there then it retains status (whatever that is) and remains free to move around. As you say, a marina invoice should be sufficient evidence of location.

(a) We still need documented proof that EU VAT has been paid. At the moment, a couple of countries accept the T2L as proof the boat has freedom of movement because at the present time we satisfy the criteria - the country the shipment is loaded from and delivered to belong to the EU member countries. After Brexit, it appears we won't be in the Customs Union and course won't be an EU member country. Under the rules as they stand now (no deals done), it seems T2Ls can't be issued after Brexit. What we don't know, is how existing ones will be treated but I suspect there will have to be a transition period for goods in transit to reach destinations.

 

[Chris_Robb]

T2L alone will be very unlikely sufficient. Along with a French marina bill from the 31 December hopefully...

I would be surprised if a T2L without proof of payment of VAT - in the UK it was a manufacturers Invoice, showing VAT pay and the Vat number of the manufacturer, - would be sufficient.

I would certainly not accept a T2L as proof of payment of Vat on a 2nd Hand boat I was buying. However - Croatia and Portugal misguidedly think the T2L is Proof.......

It is certainly essential to get corroborative evidence that you were IN the EU27 on the moment of B-Day (being at the moment 31st December 2020.)

 

[GTom]

Right of course. VAT receipt, T2L, EU marina receipt.

 

[nortada]

I would be surprised if a T2L without proof of payment of VAT - in the UK it was a manufacturers Invoice, showing VAT pay and the Vat number of the manufacturer, - would be sufficient.

I would certainly not accept a T2L as proof of payment of Vat on a 2nd Hand boat I was buying. However - Croatia and Portugal misguidedly think the T2L is Proof.......

It is certainly essential to get corroborative evidence that you were IN the EU27 on the moment of B-Day (being at the moment 31st December 2020.)

Portuguese officials in Portugal are never misguided so if they want to see your T2L - best you have one!

Following yesterday's vote in The House, I think we can take it that 31 Jan 2020 is Brexit Day.

However, the transition period will muddy the water making it likely that 31st Dec 20 will be a more significant day.

Some will be aware I have done a lot of digging on a number of aspects of Brexit that could impact on British expats and long-term visitors, with varying success and I do not hold to the certainties express by some on this forum.

However, I would advise taking any/all steps possible before Brexit that might ameliorate the impact of Brexit and this includes getting a T2L. I am first to agree that the T2L is meaningless, until some official wants to see it. Then it becomes very significant!

True to say, the T2L saga has been done to death is a series of threads on this forum. Some express strongly held view but I am still in the don't know camp.

 

[Beneteau381]

I was reading up about free movement after Brexit and I noted this comment:

"If your boat has the customs status of Union goods (Union status) and is in a port or the internal or territorial waters of the EU27 at the point in time where the UK leaves the EU, our understanding is that it should retain its Union status and should continue to be entitled to free movement. Means of proving Union status are detailed in the Union Customs Code Implementing Regulations. Of the documents listed, an invoice or a paper T2L are the most suitable for recreational boats."

I have an original receipt but thought perhaps a T2L might add additional ammunition in my arsenal. What says the group and does anyone have any experience of how to apply for the T2L?

I did it and wrote it up for PBO, easy peasy with the kit from the RYA.