suveyer says i need copper pipe to my eberspasher

sjclewes

sjclewes

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hi all, what do you think? my surveyor has told me my newly installed eberspasher needs to be fed in copper pipe ? it was supplied to me with all the relevant piping, and will not be taken on any British inland waterways where copper is specified. personally think the pipe that it comes with it is ok but the surveyor is digging his heels in and wants me to comply with inland waterways. All thoughts and advice appreciated
 
sjclewes said:
hi all, what do you think? my surveyor has told me my newly installed eberspasher needs to be fed in copper pipe ? it was supplied to me with all the relevant piping, and will not be taken on any British inland waterways where copper is specified. personally think the pipe that it comes with it is ok but the surveyor is digging his heels in and wants me to comply with inland waterways. All thoughts and advice appreciated
Click to expand...

Show him the 'does diesel explode' thread :)

Mine, as yours, was supplied with nylon tubing from the supply to the heater. Can't see any reason why it should be necessary to modify the manufacturer's kit. Mine has been in for at least 10 years, no problems at all.
 
FWIW, I asked an Eberspacher techy about this at SBS and their recomendation was, providing the boat isn't on inland waterways, to only use copper if the fuel pipe goes through the engine space.
 
Yacht/Small Craft Surveyors are like their counterparts in the Construction Industry...The Building Regs Brigade... They thrive on regulations (especially new ones) that make them feel a little more important, raise their kudos and keep them in a job. I know quite a few of them, and wouldn't trust one of them to build a rabbit hutch. Knock..nail...straight.....What?

Those that can.....build things. Those that can't.....stand there and look, it's called surveying.

They'll win in the end of course...give it another ten years and we'll all be regulated out of existence.

Plumb it with the piping supplied....unless of coarse you're taking a short cut across the top of the cooker..lol..
 
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We were forced to replace the supplied eber hose from the tank to the pump and the pump to the eber by the British waterways safety scheme, never work the same again. Couldn't get copper pipe the same id size as the ones supplied with eber.
It ended up leaking and taking air in it caused no end of problems, what the scheme had achieved was making a perfectly safe system more dangerous.
But if we did not comply we would not have got our long term license.
They also made me change my glass bottom fuel water seperators for solid ones which meant i couldn't visually inspect them any more.
They are a law into themselves and will not move.
It was very expensive to make all the alterations they wanted.
We have now left the British waterways and reverting back to the it was before.
 
hey sjclewes
can you ask your surveyer if a "diesel resistant plastic hose incorporating a flexible s.steel braided armour" would be okay. Just to get the answer.

Perhaps I just don't understand the reasoning, but I've always considered copper piping in a boat environment a bit antiquated (subject to flexing, chaffing, shockloading, corrosion).

One chore that always needs doing on any passages I've crewed on was to tighten the copper line fittings to seal the gas leaks.

Hard to believe its the best we've got to do the job nowadays? :confused:
 
How about running the supplied diesel resistant plastic pipe INSIDE a copper pipe? That will certainly confuse a surveyor? If its mechanical protection that they are worried about, then running inside a copper pipe will satisfy that demand. If its because the surveyor feels the plastic pipe isn't suitable, then get him to contact the manufacturer and request the tech spec on it.
 
Presumably all components used by eberspacher are CE marked/certified. Ask eberspacher for their certification for suitability of use in the proposed installation...water borne craft.

If you have that you have EC approval. I wonder how British Waterways can be a superior certification body to the EC, and what evidence they can provide to demonstrate their requirements are justifiable. They probably just have a safety consultant saying 'its got to be copper as its fire resistant and won't melt'. Which might of course be true.

Tim
 
mickywillis said:
How about running the supplied diesel resistant plastic pipe INSIDE a copper pipe? That will certainly confuse a surveyor? If its mechanical protection that they are worried about, then running inside a copper pipe will satisfy that demand. If its because the surveyor feels the plastic pipe isn't suitable, then get him to contact the manufacturer and request the tech spec on it.
Click to expand...

Good answer,
I was told this after i had made all the alterations, its certainly something I would do in the future.
The British waterways surveyours, tend to lift hatch's and open cupboards and go oh ah and try and tick a box on there form, not to difficult to mislead them.
 
faith restored.

Chapter 2 page 26 (of 38) Requirement 2.10.2/R.

Your Surveyer is off his game by the looks of it?

If your hose hasn't got the standard marked on
it, the vendor will obligue I'm sure.
 
9/10 years ago a surveyor insisted he wanted me to cut and join my copper gas pipe into 4 pieces with 8 olives for BW compliance with bulkhead junctions which was absurd. I got another surveyor and he gave different advice which left the copper pipe in one piece to the cooker.
 
sjclewes said:
hi all, what do you think? my surveyor has told me my newly installed eberspasher needs to be fed in copper pipe ? it was supplied to me with all the relevant piping, and will not be taken on any British inland waterways where copper is specified. personally think the pipe that it comes with it is ok but the surveyor is digging his heels in and wants me to comply with inland waterways. All thoughts and advice appreciated
Click to expand...
OK let's look at it from a different angle - you state he is your surveyor therefore he does what you will (may) eventually pay him for. As you state the boat will not be used on inland waterways the BSS does not apply, unless you asked for a survey against BSS requirements, therefore tell the git to complete the survey as per what you asked for without any reference to BSS. If he is trying it on (applying additional unnecessary "regulations") then tell him to go away in short jerky motions.:eek:

Also name and shame so we can all avoid the plonker:D
 
How about asking if there is an adult surveyor available to certify your trusty craft !

I do like the idea of using a copper pipe as a conduit for the proper plastic fuel feed. Good lateral thinking.

Best of luck.

73s de
Johnth
 
well lords ladies and gentlemen thanks for the brilliant replies and the evidence links to back it up i will of course shove it up his copper pipe and i will certainly name and shame once relevant paperwork is done thanks all best regards Simon
 
sjclewes said:
my surveyor has told me my newly installed eberspasher needs to be fed in copper pipe ? it was supplied to me with all the relevant piping, and will not be taken on any British inland waterways where copper is specified.
Click to expand...

On a purely practical level, is it actually possible to do this? It's a long time since I fitted mine but I recall that the nylon pipe supplied is very small diameter indeed. I guess it may be possible to buy copper tubing with the same bore, but I suspect its OD might be quite a bit more. In that case it may be that the fittings will not fit the Eberspacher.
 
Eberspacher fuel pipe and BSS

I've fitted two now on two different boats, and on both of these different BSS surveyers have requested copper pipe for fuel supply. It really is not a problem, and Linden Lewis for one (Shepperton Marina Chandlery) can supply pipe and fittings. I'm sure they are not alone. They also install if you've got £2.5k to spare!

I believe it is on the Espar site that instructions were provided to do just this but for the life of me I cannot find the reference now. However, the principle advocated was to saw off the fuel connections on the pump and the Eber unit to remove the little bump for hose connection and then a 1/8" or (4mm?) metric whatever coupling for copper will fit properly. A reducer is needed from memory for one end of the pump to maintain the 1/8" size. So long as this is done the unit complies UNLESS it is in the engine compartment of a petrol engined boat when it will not comply. I confess to mixing both imperial 1/8" and (4mm?) metric, they are compression fittings and the sizes are only thou apart so appear to interchange. Well, they do up tight, and do not leak anyway.

Bear in mind to ensure the use of the Eber exhaust skin fitting (around £120) so as not to cook a plastic or wooden hull, unnecessary on a steel hull, and the exhaust needs lagging to prevent setting fire to anything near it.

The reason for the apparent confusion is probably that all Eber instructions (downloadable) refer to the system as a bunk heater for passenger compartments on trucks and not boats!

Most of these regulations came about because of problems in the past, resulting in injury or death or loss of craft. They probably have their roots in the old Thames Conservancy specifications for launches, when the TC became TWA and then migrated to EA the regs and specs probably migrated as well and later became the basis for the BSS. Take glass fuel filter bowls, banned because they could shatter and at some time probably did just that and someone got hurt. That reg was with TC 40 years ago and is NOT new. Neither is copper for fuel and gas lines, use of protection or bulkhead fittings and non flammable gas lockers, all the things so many boat owners now whinge about. These regs may not be as old as taxes but I had to comply in the late 60's and everything was set out clearly with diagrams for the thick owners and contained in TC's little booklet "Launch Digest". It's a shame that they no longer do it!

Why NOT comply with BSS, if inland boats have to on calm waters why should not offshore boats in far more ardous conditions? You all witter on constantly about epirbs and life rafts and crotch straps and harnesses on life jackets, all as major important safety issues yet you complain about safety issues for the boat. Amazing!
 
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