Survival/Immersion/Drysuits

[dom]

The Channel Light Vessel tells us that the water temp today is 11.3C.

According to the US Coast Guard survivability in 10C water is circa 35% after two hours in the water with oilies, c.60% with a survival suit with a wet thermal layer inside, and >99% with a suitable dry thermal layer. Moreover, the point of exhaustion/unconsciousness occurs at approx 1/3 to a 1/2 the ultimate expected survival time', at which point the casualty becomes 100% reliant upon his/her LJ/Sprayhood etc.

There are many threads on here about PLBs, EPIRBs, and AIS beacons, the first two of which are close on worthless offshore in normal UK conditions. And not much better in most coastal locations...

....unless backed up bay a suitably specced immersion suit.

I think we discussed this a few years back, but I'm wondering what current thinking is? The carrying/wearing of immersion suits is after all mandatory in many commercial activities.

Oops wrong forum, but perhaps if JM sees this he could be so kind as to move it to Scuttlebutt?

 

[ltcom]

I agree with you. When I started cruising a survival suit (second hand but functioning) was one of my first purchases.

 

[simonfraser]

how many of us perish each year after having fallen over board in cold water ?
(excluding getting home drunk from the pub in the dinghy)

 

[ltcom]

how many of us perish each year after having fallen over board in cold water ?
(excluding getting home drunk from the pub in the dinghy)

How many of us use our liferaft?
How many of us have needed our seatbelt? I have never needed my seat belt in more years than I wish to mention, but I still wear it just in case.
Depends on your risk assessment of the type of sailing you do and where you go I suppose.

 

[prv]

How many of us use our liferaft?
How many of us have needed our seatbelt? I have never needed my seat belt in more years than I wish to mention, but I still wear it just in case.
Depends on your risk assessment of the type of sailing you do and where you go I suppose.

Problem is, to be any good if you fall overboard you'd have to wear the suit all the time just in case. Offshore workboat crews do just that, but for most of us sailors it doesn't feel like a reasonable tradeoff.

Pete

 

[zoidberg]

Lifeboat crews, S&R crews, military aircrew..... wear immersion ( ! ) suits 'cos it has been noticed that they die if they fall into cold water without a 'Goon Suit'. Some choose not to bother.....
Some truly believe that they are never going to die.

 

[ltcom]

Problem is, to be any good if you fall overboard you'd have to wear the suit all the time just in case. Offshore workboat crews do just that, but for most of us sailors it doesn't feel like a reasonable tradeoff.

Pete

Well yes. But I only put mine on if I see weather is going to turn a bit nasty. I do wear it all time if Winter sailing and at beginning of season. Or if I am solo and offshore. Base layer and suit is gortex membrane.

 

[prv]

Well yes. But I only put mine on if I see weather is going to turn a bit nasty.

Which rather illustrates my point. If you were to go overboard on a nice day - which I believe is no less likely than in nasty weather that makes you move around carefully, hold on tight, and perhaps clip on a harness - then you'll not be wearing the suit.

The people in Zoidberg's post wear them all the time because their organisations' rules say so (by "lifeboat crews" I'm assuming he means ILBs - ALB crews generally wear oilies, not drysuits). And when I used to sail with the Tall Ships Youth Trust, the seaboat launching drill had the bosun and deckhand one muster as crew, deckhand two slack away and trice down the braces, and deckhand three fetch the suits. Not "deckhand three look around and see if it's a nice day then decide whether suits are needed".

As leisure sailors we aren't generally that strict with ourselves.

Pete

 

[obmij]

Problem is, to be any good if you fall overboard you'd have to wear the suit all the time just in case. Offshore workboat crews do just that, but for most of us sailors it doesn't feel like a reasonable tradeoff.

Pete

Not quite - only when the sea temperature is below a certain level (typically 10°c), and during certain activities.

At this time of year with air temperatures in the high teens and sea temps in the 9's the benefits of wearing a suit are marginal at best. Even moderate physical activity makes you sweat ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶r̶a̶p̶i̶s̶t̶ buckets in a Fladen. More than 30 minutes on deck and dehydration is a real possibility.

 

[ltcom]

Which rather illustrates my point. If you were to go overboard on a nice day - which I believe is no less likely than in nasty weather that makes you move around carefully, hold on tight, and perhaps clip on a harness - then you'll not be wearing the suit.

The people in Zoidberg's post wear them all the time because their organisations' rules say so (by "lifeboat crews" I'm assuming he means ILBs - ALB crews generally wear oilies, not drysuits). And when I used to sail with the Tall Ships Youth Trust, the seaboat launching drill had the bosun and deckhand one muster as crew, deckhand two slack away and trice down the braces, and deckhand three fetch the suits. Not "deckhand three look around and see if it's a nice day then decide whether suits are needed".

As leisure sailors we aren't generally that strict with ourselves.

Pete

I was agreeing with you. I didn't do it well. My suit would be off if inshore and water temp was up. Suit on if temp is low (even in calm conditions). Suit on if offshore whatever the water temp and weather (except hot Doldrums maybe- but if solo I'd be clipped on always - yes even if in the doldrums. Anyone can trip accidentally even in calm still hot weather. Flying fish startle you and bang head tether will kerp you on-board. I am a bit too strict with myself perhaps.

 

[Kukri]

I am a convert to wearing a drysuit in cold weather and in bad weather. This means that my regular crew (my sons) have drysuits also and that in turn means 275kn lifejackets to go with the drysuits, because to go OB in a drysuit with a 175kn LJ risks dying in a particularly silly way... so two sets of LJs because you don’t want to wear a 275kn one to go to the pub in the dinghy.

 

[zoidberg]

I am a convert to wearing a drysuit in cold weather and in bad weather. This means that my regular crew (my sons) have drysuits also and that in turn means 275kn lifejackets to go with the drysuits, because to go OB in a drysuit with a 175kn LJ risks dying in a particularly silly way... so two sets of LJs because you don’t want to wear a 275kn one to go to the pub in the dinghy.

Isn't that 'going a bit overboard' on the PPE, or do you get 'mates rates' from being in the industry....?

 

[Kukri]

Isn't that 'going a bit overboard' on the PPE, or do you get 'mates rates' from being in the industry....?

Alas no mates’ rates on yottiquipment! But I discovered that Sir RKJ has, for many years, equipped his customers with Henri-Lloyd drysuits, some of which circle the globe in their original bags with their original tags, because he also supplies seriously good oilskins.

The 275kn lifejackets are the new Teamo Backtow ones, which I am seriously impressed by. Made in darkest Woolston!

 

[DownWest]

The couple in the boat ahead of me on the moorings at Le Bono had breathable drysuits that joined at the waist. Sounded much easier than the diagonal zip that looks tricky to get on (I have shoulder issues)

 

[Daverw]

The spilt suits are making worn by kayakers and board guys, they are good but not fully dry, not sure why you need the 275kn life jacket, I was told recently these were for commercial use when guys have metal toe boots and tool belts. I spent many years in the water with a full dry suit, whitewater kayaking and if you put it on right and it’s fits well you don’t have an issuer feet up, which is what I thing you refer to. If you not sure find out when you local swim pool as paddling session and the local kayaking club would let you actually try yo gear out in the real world, you will be very surprised how comfortable you can be as long as you can keep the water from you head.

 

[dom]

Worth bearing in mind:

1. Drysuits encompass a wide range from kayak, dinghy, offshore sailing, diving, and coded survival. Within this there's a wide spectrum of breathability and movement.

2. It's really important to get one that fits properly, including the underlayer envisaged for the conditions in which it will be used. (drysuits on their own don't keep you warm).

3. Re LJ's: 275s may be necessary depending on body weight, fit of the drysuit, equipment carried, etc.

4. Prices seem to be getting steadily lower and fabric/fit quality better with great improvements in terms of neoprene seals, etc.
​

Aside from this, I've never really understood why sailors seem happy to spend hundreds of pounds on Plbs, Ebirbs, auto-danbuoys, fancy lifejackets, MoB recovery equipment (as evidenced by countless threads on here), but seem to rarely have on board the necessary personal protective equipment to preserve life within the time envelope of this gear.

By contrast, survival/dry-suits are widely specified/mandated across almost every waterborne commercial activity one can think of where offshore immersion is a risk.

 

[bedouin]

Aside from this, I've never really understood why sailors seem happy to spend hundreds of pounds on Plbs, Ebirbs, auto-danbuoys, fancy lifejackets, MoB recovery equipment (as evidenced by countless threads on here), but seem to rarely have on board the necessary personal protective equipment to preserve life within the time envelope of all this gear.

I find it hard to envisage a situation in which a drysuit would be a better option than a liferaft

 

[Yellow Ballad]

I bought a "out of date" survival suit off ebay last year and woudn't want to be wearing it just in case, more a lost the rig and waiting to be picked up scenario.

I do fancy a dry suit though for when the weather turns a bit wet.

 

[Daverw]

Ocean Safety clearly told us a few weeks ago at a CA seminar that could not see any situation that a leisure sailer need a 275kn life gasket, let actual said the the heavier the person the more natural buoyancy you had and the life jacket was to turn you over and keep you head afloat, apparently the human had to no vary much in actual weight.

Also I found using my full kayaking dry suit good for dingy racing too as it’s cut for seated position and shoulders zip as I find that s more comfortable unlike many which are cut as Dom says for each discipline, and yes also you have to have your romper suit as they do get very cold without, they don’t heat up much inside anymore due to fancy fabrics

 

[dom]

I find it hard to envisage a situation in which a drysuit would be a better option than a liferaft

I was more thinking both, but it's a fair question. Now obviously one always wants to get as many as possible, and at least one strong person, into the LR directly from the sinking vessel. But that, of course doesn't always work out.

Depending on the LR entry system I personally find it a doddle to enter while fresh and wearing a wetsuit, drysuit, or swimming trunks; even in cool water. Tiredness, cold, hunger, dehydration will naturally all detract.

Adding a heavy weight of wet (and near useless for thermal retention) clothes would - I'm guessing - seriously hamper one's ability to enter the LR.

Not to forget that, if the LR floats off or fails to work, a suitably specced drysuit would stand a damn good chance of keeping the casualty alive if within helo range and in possession of a tracking beacon.