Surveys / Engine & Rigging Inspections - newbie questions

[PEEJAYSEA]

Hi

a couple of questions if I may -

1. Standing rigging - Is it common practice for standing rigging to have to be replaced every 10 years or is that just what is recommended?

2. Running rigging - how often does this require replacing?

3. Survey - does this check rigging and engines or do you have to request "specialist" inspections?

4. Costs - of survey? New rigging (standing complete) (running complete?)


Tyring to cover the potential pitfalls for a future first time buy!

Thanks
Paul

 

[Seapepper]

Standing Rigging

This is a bit like 'how long is a piece of string'
The life of standing rigging depends on how long the yacht is in comission, how hard you sail it, whether the mast is left up throughout the laying up period, how well the riggigng is set up, whether the standing rigging is on the light side or belt and braces heavy....and there are probably a lot more variables which no one has thought of yet. The 10 year replacement was invented by insurance companies, ie when it is 10 years old its not insured. I have heard of yachts which have had rigging surveyed and passed as ok, only to loose their mast shortly after the survey.
I think that, unless you know the history of the yacht, bearing in mind the above, it might be wise to replace the rigging to be on the safr side.

Hope this helps

 

[Skysail]

Running rigging can last a long time if it is looked after ie washed regularly and removed for the winter. A lot gets replaced for cosmetic reasons.

Surveys are usually structural; they will not cover engine, electronics, rigging. Sails will be visual inspection only.

Look here for more detail - http://www.ydsa.co.uk/surveys.html

Prices can vary a lot, its more important to get a reliable surveyor - there is lots of advice on the forum

 

[Tranona]

Ordinary purchase survey is intended to ensure that the boat is as described by the vendor as you have no comeback once you have accepted it from a private vendor. Normally surveyors don't get involved with detailed engine or rig surveys because they are too specialised. Whether you have them done will depend on the boat and its history. The 10 year for standing rigging is a rule of thumb from insurance companies, but not all use it as there is little evidence to support it. Similarly running rigging life can vary - I have just replaced two halyards that were 18 years old, but the topping lift, jib sheets and spinnaker halyard from the same date are still serviceable. The main sheet is probably 25 years old and still fine.

Survey costs are based on length of boat and possibly travelling time. Suggest you contact the YDSA for information on surveyors.

Rigging replacement on a 32ft masthead rig around £1-1.5k for standing and running.

Seems like you need to invest a small amount of money in buying the RYA booklet on buying and selling second hand boats. It will answer most of your questions and many you have not even thought of!

 

[PEEJAYSEA]

Seems like you need to invest a small amount of money in buying the RYA booklet on buying and selling second hand boats. It will answer most of your questions and many you have not even thought of!

As it would happen this was waiting in the mail box when I arrived home from work!!

I kind of figured that these may be ....the string question..... but nevertheless interesting comments so far.

Thanks
Paul

 

[vyv_cox]

Answers to your 1 and 2:

1. I have read that some insurance companies require that standing rigging be replaced at certain intervals but that is not true of my insurers. The real answer is that rigging is a perfect subject for condition-based maintenance, which means that inspection is required. There are companies who offer electronic methods of detecting cracks or breaks in individual cable strands but my experience is that these are clearly visible well before failure. Get into the habit of inspecting shrouds and stays regularly, especially at stress-raisers such as swaged fittings and spreader ends. If there is a broken strand it will be visible.

2. As has been said, take out running rigging in the winter and replace it with something cheap and long-lasting, like 6 mm polypropylene. You should get at least ten years out of most well looked-after running rigging. I recently replaced my main halyard that was 15 years old, mainly because it was worn around the clutch area.

And 4 - get used to surveying it yourself, free. If you are not confident get someone else to help out the first time, there is usually no shortage of volunteers amongst the yachting fraternity. But it isn't rocket science, just common sense.

 

[bluedragon]

Just had a survey done. Rigging, electronics and engine were checked (but not specialist testing...the sort of checks a knowledgeable owner would do). Different surveyors tend to focus on different things. If it's an old boat or you have reason to suspect an issue, then getting in a engine mechanic or a rigger might make sense...or if your sailing plans involve blue water or arduous conditions. If not, just a normal survey is OK I'd say.

 

[bobgarrett]

I sold recently and the yacht surveyor was concerned over some oil on the engine. He suggested to the buyer that an engineer should check it. Three Volvo agents came to three different conclusions; the first said "new engine needed" or words to that effect, the second two said no big problem. So my suggestion to buyers or sellers would be get an independent check not one where they might see a potential for lots of extra work.

 

[Richard10002]

In answer to the OPs question, I think that surveyors pay little regard to rigging, unless it is obviously Knackered. If it looks OK, they may comment on its' age, and some may recommend replacement, whereas others may not. Whatever they say, they will be covered against future failure by their terms and conditions.

Similarly, they will merely look closely at the engine, and tell you whether it looks OK or not, unless there is something very obviously wrong.

The upshot is that you cant really rely on what a surveyor says about standing rigging and engines.

As my rigging was 12 years old when I insured with Pantaenius, they agreed to cover only 50% of any loss caused by the rigging failing. My buyers insured with Pantaenius, and they had to agree to replace the rigging over a short period of time. It was 15 years old when I sold, so probably not a bad idea.

As a matter of interest, my buyers surveyor was really hot on looking for cracks. He found one under the aft bunk and was making very serious noises about a cracked hull... until I pointed out that it was a scratch in the paint on a piece of wood which supported the Eberspacher, (or something)..... he backtracked very quickly. I wondered how many more "serious cracks and problems" he would have found, had I not been helping him to move stuff about, (cushions, matteresses, and the like). I think he would also have had the keel and bolts replaced aswell, had I not had an invoice handy for a previous hull survey, and replaced keel bolts 9 months earlier.

In addition, both the buyer and myself knew that he had missed quite a bit of stuff that the buyer had already spotted, or that I had declared.

All in all, not particularly satisfactory, but the sale went ahead, which was the aim of the exercise.

In the end, the buyer asked for a further £5k off the price as a result of the survey, and I agreed, as this is what I had expected and budgeted for - the buyers felt like they'd won, and so did I.... a win-win situation, which is how I like to do business.

 

[PEEJAYSEA]

Very interesting reading indeed - thanks.

It seems like there is no common denominator when it comes to the survey. -

I am guessing that if purchasing a 30 year old boat (especially for the first time) a survey will be a pre-requisit of getting insurance!

I would, for piece of mind, get one done to see how / what is looked at - but the thread seems to be they will look at the usual areas an owner would be looking at when doing routine maintenance. That would give me the opportunity to witness the areas they focus on and the areas that they don't!

Thanks once again

Paul

 

[charles_reed]

Very interesting reading indeed - thanks.

It seems like there is no common denominator when it comes to the survey. -

I am guessing that if purchasing a 30 year old boat (especially for the first time) a survey will be a pre-requisit of getting insurance!

I would, for piece of mind, get one done to see how / what is looked at - but the thread seems to be they will look at the usual areas an owner would be looking at when doing routine maintenance. That would give me the opportunity to witness the areas they focus on and the areas that they don't!

Thanks once again

Paul

Probably - mine want one on a boat older than 20 years.

Re standing rigging - Lulu, who rigged most of the Sables d'Olonne Open 60s, reckoned 16 years or once round the world, as a good guideline.

Of my running rigging, about 50 % is from when the boat was new, 20 years ago. I have replaced all the halyards with Dyneema/Spectra.

 

[mattnj]

all i would add is, go and have a very good look yourself, i would allow a full day to go over everything in small detail....we bought a small project a few years ago, and although we are very happy with the overall purchase, i had 2 nasty shocks not on the "survey"...a couple of things for you to think about:-

1) the fibreglass under the chain plates was splitting (due to water ingress) but hidden by a simple cover and some screws, luckily i saw it and had it fixed, but could have been disasterous.

2) the prop was completely shafted (pardon the pun) the pins completely worn and very very obvious when out of the water.

3) Diesel filter was completetly full of brown gunk, im amazed it even ran.

The point im making is, the surveyor when i went back to him was completely uninterested in these shortfallings in his survey, but i had them down as both crucial things to look at and simple things to look at, so, get a professional survey done, then go do your own and allow a full day, and look even harder in the harder to get to places (behind covers etc)

i would never buy a boat on a surveyors "survey" only.

 

[vyv_cox]

i would never buy a boat on a surveyors "survey" only.

Absolutely right. My boat was surveyed before buying, a pre-requisite of the finance company. The survey report was glowing, saying 'one of the nicest boats I have seen in recent years.'

The first thing we realised after taking ownership was that there was a rusty stain up the walls of one of the galley lockers. A seacock at the bottom of this locker was inoperable, not only seized closed but the handle had rusted through due to the water that had been in there. Quite obviously not tested during the survey. The insulation in the engine compartment was saturated and the engine very rusty, due to the infamous water pump seal failure on its Bukh engine. It would have been impossible to miss these signs if the companionway steps had been taken off.

So much for surveyors' reports. I could have done a far better job myself but this could not be arranged. I would have bought the boat anyway so these faults had no influence, but more is expected from a professional.