Surveying bodies RINA v. YDSA

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jonjo

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I am looking for a surveyor to conduct a survey on a GRP yacht. In the past I have used a member of the YDSA but I had a chat with a Richard English (A.M.R.I.N.A.) last summer at Hamble Point.

Mr English seemed like a levelheaded and diligent chap who made useful observations on a yacht I was viewing at the time. I suppose it all comes down to individuals but are RINA and TDSA members equally qualified to survey small GRP boats?

A George Truckle at Cowes has also been suggested as he would be more local to the boat.

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I'd be intrigued in other peoples perceptions on this...

RINA is the professional body for Naval Architects, and as such publishes learned papers on various arcane topics. Whilst I was an undergraduate reading Naval Architecture I seem to recall being a Student Member - and certainly wasnt qualified to survey anything, except the hydrodynamic properties of various real ales. OTOH, my old man was a RINA member, had served his apprenticeships at Clare Lallows, ran his own boatyard and was a foreign going master (and home waters) under sail - as such he knew quite a lot and was a competent surveyor.

As far as the YDSA is concerned I'm not sure that it has technical levels of competence or experience as an entry criteria, so any comfort you may get is probably simply that the person concerned takes his job seriously enough to join the relevant 'trade association'.

I'd go with personal reccomendations, and a secure professional indemnity policy every time!

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Members of the RINA are Chartered Engineeers, and must meet the basic qualifications for CEng.

These are:
1) First degree, individually accredited by the RINA , and the Engineering Council (very few alternatives available, and all very well controlled). Now, these are 4 year MEng degrees which meet the requirements of the EC, and have a minimum A level entry requirement of 24 points.
2) Training - usually 2 years (may be before graduation)
3) Professional experience - 2 years practice of increasing sophistication and under reducing supervision.
4) Professional interview.

This process takes about 7 to 8 years. In practice, they have to conform with a code.

I would favour the CEng MRINA

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Re: RINA v. YDSA

Thanks.

I think what I am hearing is that RINA members are the more senior professionals but their on-the-job experience could be diverse.

I assume the danger of selecting an RINA member at random is that he could have spent 30 years surveying oil rigs or super tankers and have recently switched to small leisure craft as a semi retirement job. In contrast YDSA members are more likely to have specialized in surveying small GRP yachts.

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Hi - having now sold my boat - the surveyor employed by the buyer did a bloody good job and spotted a major fault missed by 2 other surveyors. He is David Hopkins - probably at his best on the older heavier boats. Whilst not liking his findings, I was most impressed with his balanced view.

What are you buying?

Chris

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Got to say - now that I am boatless too, that hoppy hopkins did a very good survey on mine when I sold it - I didn't exactly like his findings - but he was fair and objective - and has huge amount of experience.

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Re: RINA v. YDSA

I'd agree - well qualified, but maybe no real world experience in small boat structures. Surveying as such may not even be their trade - may be more involved with design, hydrodynamics or structures analysis.

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Re: What are you buying?

Ho hum.

“Was buying” is now the operative term. In the last hour I have learnt on the grapevine that what the owner described as a two thumb nail sized chip in the bottom of the rudder is in fact serious damage to the bottom leading edge and internal foam is now exposed. The rudder requires a complete dry out!

No sailing this Easter then :-(

I had recently shifted my focus from 20 year old boats to nearly new i.e. < 5 years but buying any secondhand boat is such a lottery. I may as well walk into the Opal office next Saturday and sign a cheque on a brand new boat. Despite all the scurrilous gossip about Bavarias it seems like the safest option.

I suppose if I am going to play really safe it would be worthwhile getting an independent survey even on a new boat for complete peace of mind.


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Re: What are you buying?

<<I would prefer to go for a 2 year old boat - where all the problems have been ironed out. >>


Unless the rudder starts waggling about. Ask Jimi!

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Re: What are you buying?

<I suppose if I am going to play really safe it would be worthwhile getting an independent survey even on a new boat for complete peace of mind.>

Not a bad idea, but at what point? If it is a stock boat and you can do this before paying up fine. But if it is ordered then most of your cash will have been handed over by delivery and will the contract allow you to walk for what are effectively snaggs which, would normally be sorted under warranty.

I went to buy a new Hanse stock boat 2 years ago and when I looked it over there was 1" of water in the bilges (it was in the water), was able to deduce that it was not the one for me. Did ring a couple of surveyors who said they rarely did pre-boat surveys unless it was during the build and that often involved trips abroad.

Eventually went for a new (ex-demo) Beneteau which has been fine, think your idea of a new boat is a good one although personally am not keen on Bavs.



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Re: What are you buying?

I suppose you could say that the whole design concept of AWB is flawed - weak rudder design - weeak keel attachments - etc etc etc. so perhaps I shoudl never have sold Corsiar!

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Re: What are you buying?

Speaking, as is my wont, from a position of almost total ignorance, it seems to me that the problem with most AWBs is that they're build down to a price, rather than up to a standard. Scantlings and equipment specs are shaved to the minimum, because anything more costs money.

However, this minimum is still more than adequate for the marina-hopping that most people do with them, so for most people, they're still adequate - at least for a few years. Most older boats, especially better quality ones seem to more than hold their price, even after 20+ years. I wonder what the current AWB models will be worth in 20 years time

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Re: What are you buying?

Most rudders are soaked as they leak from the top where the shaft goes in. You shouldn't right it off without further conversations with a surveyor - and repair costs should be reflected in what you offer. If the owner does not disclose it to you before you make an offer - he will get screwed in the survey process - providing you are using a proper contract. So not necessarly a problem.

I must say - I was very very honest about any faults when I sold, and it was just as well becasue the surveyor picked up every one - I had listed them in the contract pre survey - so they could not be used to reduce the price as I put a clause in the standard RYA contract to exclude these from the post survey price adjustment. So honestly pays.

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Re: What are you buying?

What AWB will be worth in 20 years time - well 2 things spring to mind, Will some of them last that long at all if sailed regulary accross the channel rather than just marina hopping.

The shear volume being produced could cause the more heavily used ones to have a monumental fall in value, as the market will be in an over supply situation. This may especially effect ex charter boats of 5 years or more. Why buy one of these if there are plenty of the marina hopping examples for sale?

I think I will end up with buying a heavily used but OK ex charter boat in Greece or Turkey in 2 or 3 years time - keeping it out there and not really caring about the pride of ownership part. and hopefully - dirt cheap. Only time will tell!

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Re: What are you buying?

> Most rudders are soaked as they leak from the top where the shaft goes in

I agree, that when buying a 20 year old yacht, rudder problems are the norm but at 5 years I was hoping to avoid this type of problem.

The incident that lead up to the rudder loosing its leading lower corner is what concerns me more. I agree that the rudder can be repaired or replaced, though this rules out an Easter Launch, but it could take 6 months for stress crazing around the rudder tube to work its way out to the surface.

I was bitten once before when after making a deposit on a yacht the yard bent the rudder while moving the boat. Eventually all concerned agreed that the rudder could be straightened and the damaged rudder GRP made good. It was only 6 months later that I faced a further bill to get the rudder stock tube re bonded to the hull.

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Re: Bad old boats

> problem with most AWBs is that they're build down to a price, rather
> than up to a standard

This was also true of Contessa 32s and Westerlys. There are many flimsy Co32s on the market that I would not touch with a barge pole and such boats only hang together because of the inherent strength of the wine glass hull shape.

Please don't delude yourself into thinking that most 1970's and 1980's yachts we created on the basis of good engineering and high quality material science.

I used to subscribe to your view point that old GRP yachts were better by definition but having owned an old Nicholson 38 for a year I can tell you they have their own special problems.

Westerly GKs, Fulmars and Sigmas of 20 years ago had poorly supported keels, by way of contrast I suggest you look at the extraordinary massive cross section of the floor pan support members in a Bavaria 36, it puts to shame the puny Westerly and Sigma equivalents.

Then run your hand around the lovely sealed internal hull laminate exposed in the bilges of that Bavaria 36 but before you do the same in a Nicholson I suggest you put on a leather gardening glove otherwise your hand will get cut on the sloppy out-of-sight out-of-mind rough laminate finish that absorbs dirt, smells and moisture.

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Re: And

> especially better quality ones seem to more than hold their
> price, even after 20+ years

Sorry but this is utter tosh propagated by the owners of such boats.

Any broker trying to shift such boats will in private confirm my view. Brokers will salivate over the prospect of taking on a tidy 10 year old Dehler or 5 year old Beni 311 but inwardly groan when presented with a typical early smelly Fulmar.

Occasionally exceptional cherished older yachts like Chris's Victory arrive on the market but these are the 1% exception. Others like top notch Rivals or well fitted Westerly Corsairs service a special niche in the second hand market and can sell well but the rest seemed condemned to languish on brokers books until the owner phones up and shouts “just get rid of it”.

Please explain to me the logic of buying a 20 year old bilge keel Konsort at £33k in preference to a new Bavaria 32 at £57k?

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