Survey report.

Shiver Metimbers

Shiver Metimbers

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I have just received the PDF version of my survey report from the Surveyor. There are quiet a lot of general wear and tare work to be done and a several safety critical and seaworthy issues. What do I do next, get an estimate from a boat yard for cost of repairs and renegotiate my offer. Do I ask the owner to make good the defects? My offer is through a Broker do I let him see the report and see what he suggests?
 
I suppose it gets a bit more difficult to negotiate more money off the asking price if you have put in a low offer based on already knowing a lot of the work required. I don't think you can negotiate any more off for general wear and tear. If the surveyor discovered a lot that you didn't know about then this can be negotiated on. By all means get quotes for work required but it does not neccesarily mean if it says on the survey it needs done that the seller will come good for it.
The Broker may give advice but remember he is working on behalf of the seller not you.
 
To a large extent this depends on the way the vessel was advertised and to your initial offer.
I don't think it is unreasonable you to expect that the safety critical and seaworthy issues are repaired or purchase price reduced to allow you to get this work done. You probably would not be able to obtain insurance until it is completed.
As for the general wear and tear. Is it in keeping with a vessel of this age and general appearance? If it is I doubt the owner would be willing to reduce the price much.

Paul
 
First stop is to discuss it with the surveyor - that is what you paid him for. He will explain his findings and give you a guide to what you should negotiate on. However, at the end of the day it is your decision if you go ahead. You have to satisfy yourself that you are getting value for money
 
Your offer was subject to survey. You are correct in saying the next step is to either say to the broker you wish for the boat to be repaired to your surveyors satisfaction for the same money, or you can re-negotiate the price based upon current market prices for repair and you will arrange for the repair work. I would recommend if the seller is serious to sell that the repairs are carried out by them, but inspected and agreed to by your surveyor. Remember the broker is just a middle man who is acting for the seller, so beware that he will want to befriend you to make the sale go through smoothly. Do not forget the broker wants to sell quickly for the best price so he gets his commission. The seller wants to sell quickly for the best price so he gets his money. You want to buy the best product for the best price.....
 
If the survey has shown up any defect that was not apparent, you are entitled to amend your offer as you see fit, or withdraw it. Talk to the surveyor, think about it, get quotes. The broker may be helpful in getting quotes. You don't have to show the survey to the other party, but it may help.
The real negotiations have just started.
As a seller last year I was shown the relevant pages relating to a couple of repairs needed, not the whole report. The price was then reduced a little to reflect these items, not the other jobs that were apparent to the untrained eye (e.g. topsides needed repair and paint).
Good Luck!
 
Considering wear and tear, you will be deemed to have seen this before making your offer, and will get no more concessions in further negotiation. Sails worn, furniture bashed about, leaking stern gear, worn winches, frayed lines etc etc

If other matters not obvious or known to the vendor have been raised by your surveyor and are material to structural condition or operating security, you may have room for discussion;bulkheads delaminating from the hull, chainplates showing stress, engine bed fractures, damage to keel resulting in misalignment etc, damage to rudder, excessive moisture in hull and so on.

In this case, you will want to establish the cost for putting matters right, and your surveyor will have a good idea or you can get a yard to quote. Normally, it's a back of envelope job, if the vendor recognises the importance of the issues, and a new price is struck without further ado.

If the vendor takes the attitide " it's sailed all right by me for xx years, and I don't see why..." you know it's time to walk away becasue you will never be happy with the deal (in a buyer's market too!)

PWG
 
[ QUOTE ]
did your surveyor make a recommendation as to the value of the boat in the condition that he inspected it? - I thought most did. This is one guide to the price you should now offer

[/ QUOTE ]

Surveyors are supposed to deal in fact not opinion.

In any event, in the current market, what is an opinion of value worth - no matter who it comes from?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
did your surveyor make a recommendation as to the value of the boat in the condition that he inspected it? - I thought most did. This is one guide to the price you should now offer

[/ QUOTE ]

Surveyors are supposed to deal in fact not opinion.

In any event, in the current market, what is an opinion of value worth - no matter who it comes from?

[/ QUOTE ]

They do deal in fact, usually very professionally, but there is nothing to stop them from offering opinion as well, providing they clearly separate the two.
If an opinion of value on a boat was offered by an underwater basket weaver I would be disinclined to pay much attention to it. If instead the valuation was offered by a professional boat surveyor I would suggest the opinion would carry more weight.
 
More weight than a professional yacht broker from an esteemed brokerage in Holland who told me last week that it was impossible to value my boat at the moment?

He said that "we just listen to an offer and hope that the buyer will reduce his price accordingly".

I do not see how a surveyor can have a better handle on the market than my man.

All a surveyor can do is look at like for like on the market at the time - he probably will not even have access to the Boatsold website to see final sale figures. And, as I was told when I did my surveyors course, should NEVER commit this to paper.
 
I think I will walk away from this one, problem being the broker has my deposit and I have to prove the defects are more than fair wear and tear. One of the defects is a crack in the base of the mast. To me a cracked mast is not general wear and tear, it is a serious sea worthiness issue.
 
A cracked mast is not a deal breaker if it can be put right either within the price or at an agreeable reduction. That is just the sort of advice you should expect from the surveyor. Remember if you walk away, even with your deposit, you have lost the cost of the survey - OK if you think you will never be happy with the boat, but rather a waste if the fault can be rectified.
 
In any boat negotiation you should 'always' agree the price 'subject to survey'.
If the defects were not mentioned than they are all negotable and I would expect a reasonable discount as the buyer will have them all again with the next buyer.
If not sadly walk away there is always another boat!
 
I have just purchased a second hand boat, and made an offer based on its condition and rectifying defects I identified. Offer was subject to survey, but specified no further discount would be requested for the defects specified in the offer.
I also asked the surveyor to give a valuation as the price eventually agreed for my initial offer was on the low side.
As it turned out the surveyor's recommendations only covered the defects I had already identified so no further negotiation was required. However, the boat is now insured at the surveyor's valuation a its about 6K higher than the offer.
My understanding is that when surveying for purchase the surveyor will only give a formal valuation if its part of his brief.
With my last boat the surveyor did find a number of significant defects that I had missed, and the final result was a reduction in price, plus the seller making good some of the safety issues himself.

Negotiating and making an offer comes with experience. I think I have got a better deal with each boat I have purchased as I have covered previous mistakes in the initial negotiations or in the formal offer, which incidentally, I always write rather than use a brokers proforma.

Hope this helps.
 
Strictly speaking, the boat you have offered to buy is sold "as seen" and I guess a crack in the mast would fit that category. There would certainly be no issue if the crack were seen by you or mentioned by the broker when you first saw the boat.
So I imagine this will not be grounds for withdrawl and getting your deposit back.

Any other technical shortcoming not obvious to you or known to the vendor/broker?

I fear your deposit may be at stake, technically, if you are not able to withdraw in good faith. If you rally want out, you'll have to throw yourself on the vendor's good nature or negotiate a loss of some deposit for the vendor's trouble. It's pretty rare for a vendor to stuff a sale down an unwilling buyer's throat...but in hard times, people can get hard nosed.

I sense you've lost interest/confidence in this boat: writing off the survey and some of the deposit may be the price to pay for getting exactly what, in a buyer's market, you want.

From personal experience of selling a boat not so long ago, I urge you to set down clearly for your own purposes exactly what you want and the use you'll put it to. Hold back on offers and deposits until you are sure. Perhaps take a surveyor along with you next time casually to help, then ask him for a formal survey.

Hope this helps.

PWG
 
I often wonder Why we make offers, "subject to survey", rather than "subject to contract" in the boating world, and why the deposit gets paid pre survey, rather than after the survey?

In the OP case, I would suggest that a cracked mast, if not noted by the buyer pre survey, is pretty serious, and a case for calling off the deal
 
Have to agree with you Richard, You pay a surveyor to spot things you don't. A cracked mast is a good reason for pulling out of the deal. The buyer didn't notice it so what, The deposit was for a sale subject to survey and the surveyor found a pretty serious defect so good grounds for pulling out IMHO. If the seller or broker didn't know about it they do now and presumably anyone else looking to buy will spot it as well so it may be that the seller will want it put right so the deal may not be over yet.
 
Talk to Surveyor - you paid him to work for you. I would expect to clarify / discuss all aspects of any report I wrote.

Second as a buyer - I'm not interested in Broker - that's sellers area. I want to talk to Seller. Broker is on Sellers side of the deal and will be looking for max return. If I cannot speak to seller direct - then I walk away.

So a) discuss all with Surveyor and get a feel for the worth of the craft. Unless specifically instructed to do so - a Surveyor does not always give a value in the report, Why ? have you seen price variations on boats ? Why should he tie himself and YOU to a value that you cannot then deny ? b) talk to Seller and discuss all points raised.

If the sale is serious and not as some boats are - just sitting on books on chance of making good money - then you will likely have a deal.

Split mast - take it this is a wooden mast ? Not unusual and depending on split - can be repaired or replaced. It is not a Seaworthiness issue but may fall into 'serious' arena.

YOU employed a surveyor - if his sum contribution of service is a PDF file and then goodbye - then that's not a good service.
 
Legally unless clearly shown in the advert or sellers OR brokers information stated 'sold as seen' you have every right to ask for a discount for 'major items' that the surveyor has found.
My surveyor found defects in the stainless steel rigging wire which I even with 30 years boating experiance or most other yachtsman would not have found.
Hense I further negotiated and agreed another £400.00 from the previous negotiated finaly agreed price from the original asking price towards a new set of rigging.
 
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