survey missed the obvious

Twister_Ken said:
You still haven't answered the question of whether you paid for a mechanical survey.
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Exactly...

You can get as emotive as you like about these things but the fact remains that a Survey is very specific and a matter of fact not emotion.

If the mechanics weren't included in the survey, all the stamping of feet in the world isn't gonna get them checked.

It's a matter of fact. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
If the boat was out of the water at the time of survey then it's unlikely the surveyor will have paid much attention to the engine. With the boat in the water you'd be lucky to get a surveyor who did more than run the engine with a quick check over the back to make sure water comes out. Basically they're not engineers and will not put themselves on the line by commenting on engines other than perhaps stating that they could turn it on and off.

Complete waste of money. Fortunately I had engaged the cheapest I could find and the insurers were happy.
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And you wonder why he didn't spot some of the boats problems? Here's a hint. Next time you get a boat surveyed, instead of going for the cheapest price, ask how long he needs to do the job and go for the longest quote.
 
Pre-purchase surveys

Tip from an ex broker

Do a deal with the owner of the boat, you engage a surveyor of your choice, if the boat passes the survey (hull and mechanical) then you pay for both surveys, if it fails on any "KEY POINTS" (agree these before hand), then the survey costs are split 50/50.

If the owner thinks the boat is the best thing since sliced bread then there should be no problems, if however the owner starts making funny noises then he knows exactly what the surveyor is going to find. Why should you be the only one to find out the boat is a dog.

After a number of years of trying selling many differing breeds of dog I started insisting that any boats coming on the books had to have up to date surveys (and not mickey mouse insurance ones) before I would touch them.. I know that it would save everyone a lot of trouble in the end. The boss didn't think so... but he's out of business now.. not surprising.
 
icepatrol said:
right.
can i make a couple of points clear.
these engines are more common in marine enviroments than has been suggested.
the burst pipe in question is in a very obviuos place.
it is a pipe that cools the fuel. as the fuel wasnt cooled ....................
hope that clears things
with regard to insurance what is the point of it if the surveyor has filled the report with get out clauses.
we are paying for survey and insurance that seems worthless.
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If you specifically engaged a Detroit Diesel specialist to do an engine survey you might have a case.

If you just asked for general condition survey that is what you get.

You really have to look at the brief and his report to see what he said. He is only responsible for what you asked him to do.

Suspect you are discovering the downside of owning an old complicated expensive boat. They were rich boys toys when they were new and potential minefields when they are old. Great if you know what you are doing, but difficult and expensive if you are reliant on others.
 
do you mean the oil coolant pipe? What is fuel coolant? and why do you want to cool your fuel? Sorry if i sound like one of those pedants on ybw forums.
 
Icepatrol, I don't get it. Fuel is not general cooled. Injectors can be cooled, I don't know your engines but I would be suprised if yours are. For the engine to seize in your scenario it sounds more like the main cooling water pipe to the block. If the fuel got too hot due to lack of cooling it wouldn't seize the engine, it just leads to irregular combustion a bit of black smoke and possibly a high exhaust temp.
The seller's surveyor thought the engine was seized on the boat I bought and I got it dirt cheap because of it. I didn't have the heart to point out that it was a flat battery.
I'm probably as qualified as any surveyor, but because I'm not recognised as such by my insurance company I still have to get a report from somebody who is. Most of the ones I've met are not very clued up on that big metal lump that sits in the bottom of the boat, fortunately I am!
Rgds
Bob
 
icepatrol said:
right.
can i make a couple of points clear.
these engines are more common in marine enviroments than has been suggested.
the burst pipe in question is in a very obviuos place.
it is a pipe that cools the fuel. as the fuel wasnt cooled ....................
hope that clears things
with regard to insurance what is the point of it if the surveyor has filled the report with get out clauses.
we are paying for survey and insurance that seems worthless.
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Obviously not that obvious as you seem to have missed it too as pointed out by another poster..

I am sure that there are not many folk here who would put to sea in a boat new to them without having down a dockside check to ensure all was secure in the machinery space regardless of survey!!!!! Yes it might be too difficult to look at sea if it means moving the coffee table and Swimbos sunlounger but I for one would always ensure I sighted the engine running under load before heading out on the briny for the first time in a new boat. I suspect your insurers might think like wise.

Mind you I even look at the engine at regular intervals when at sea to try and head off any nasty surprises but then I only have to remove a toolbox step and hatch cover to do so:D
 
Bit of background. These engines are supercharged 2 strokes. The pump/injectors are single units in the centre of each cylinder head. They are operated by a rocker and pushrod off the side cam shaft (yes, it does have one for the exaust valves too) The fuel is supplied by a lift pump on a continuous supply rail with a return to the tank. So the system is not like the average diesel in yachts. I don't recall the cooling bit as the last time I looked at one was about 20yrs ago.
A
 
lille_bee said:
After a number of years of trying selling many differing breeds of dog I started insisting that any boats coming on the books had to have up to date surveys (and not mickey mouse insurance ones) before I would touch them.. I know that it would save everyone a lot of trouble in the end. The boss didn't think so... but he's out of business now.. not surprising.
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Came to the same conclusion as a private seller. Fixed a survey from a reputable but ageing surveyor before putting the boat up for sale. Definitely helped sell the boat cos I could give viewers copies of the survey.
 
Icepatrol

Seems to me that you didnt pay for a mech survey but that need not be a problem if the symptoms of the damage was obvious to anyone doing a conscientious survey and therefore looking round the engine for leaks. If there were such symptoms then he should have pointed them out to you and recommended you get a mech survey. Failure to do so would in my view be negilgent.

Most important factor in deciding what to do is a dispassionate view of the issue. You might well be pi**ed off by what has happened but that doesnt automatically mean the surveyor did a bad job.

Dont worry too much about his exclusion clauses. Even if you are foolish enough to go to court, they might not be effective and might be viewed as oppressive. Instead write a reasonable letter to him detailing your complaint and making it nicely clear that you wont just go away. You might ultimately consider the small claims court since you only pick up your own costs as I understand it.
 
thanks for your positive comments.
the fault the surveyor missed was a fuel coolant pipe that was seriously bent and in a obvious place high up on the side of one of the engines. the diesel engineers feel the pipe has been stood on at some point in the past, causing the pipe to rub up against another part and eventually burst.
he said he and his insurnace will "vigorously" defend his position and i understand that fully,
but we feel if he had informed us of this pipe fault we could of taken action to prevent any future problems. it is going to cost a lot as the engine needs a complete strip down now so small claims wouldnt handle it.
thanks again.
 
If the fuel pipe had been stepped on, of course somebody should have noticed. It's always good practice when buying older engines, to check the manuals, drawings etc. if all looks as it should. On my own very old engine, also used frequently in marine applications, I've read everything I could. I've looked at countless pictures, read accounts of rebuilding and servicing, so that I now know exactly what it should and shouldn't do.
Before buying the boat, I couldn't of course do all that, but I did check on typical problems, know issues etc. No surveyor can do this on all engines, but my surveyor had already seen the engine before and could comment on general state etc.

And as far as something rubbing against something else, it's the major source of concern with marine engines. It's something I check every time I open the engine hatch to open the seacock, which is every time I sail. I think it's something a surveyor should also do, but I know they sometimes overlook.

So I'd definitely write to the surveyor, if for no other reason than to let him know he missed it. Anyone concerned with their trade will suggest some rectification.
 
I always always have a oil analysis done along with a survey. This tells me if the engine is no good and what is happening to the unit including coolant.I never buy until the results come back.
 
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