Survey language

[jonjo]

I would be interested to hear what image the following survey extract creates in the minds of boat users here. I have just paid for the said survey.

"indicates an advanced stage of a condition known as osmosis".

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Time to tear of the gelcoat and renew, time to creep to the bank manager, time to burn said vessel, time to sell said vessel to idiot who will not look at survey or insist on out of water inspection.



<font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ukstaffords.com>http://www.ukstaffords.com</A>

 

[tillergirl]

Well if you were looking to buy the boat you've got a good bargaining point if you really want it. If you own the boat the only thing I can think of to brighten you up is that I went to my (wooden) boat today and I think a keel bolt's leaking!

 

[PeterGibbs]

Short of being wrecked on the Needles, it means it doesn't come much worse!

PWG

 

[david_e]

I'd be inclined to go back and ask him for more detail and some comparative data from similar aged boats. Then take it from there, no doubt you had the boat surveyed when you bought her, what did it say then?

 

[oldsaltoz]

About a hundred and twenty quid a foot. . . . . . . .


Soavagoodweekend Old Salt Oz /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[Guest]

Blimey .... can I do your boat !!!

*

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Guest]

Ummm ..... you SURE ??

Sounds to me like the guy who wrote it is trying to hide his lack of knowledge or actual investigation to confirm or not confirm it ......

Did original postee attend the survey during the check of hull ?? Did the surveyor do the old fashioned 'tap tap tap' of the hull listening for that dull or hollow void sound etc. Did he use a Soveriegn - the most overrated piece of junk that ever hit the marine cowboys ??

Sorry but I don't like statements in reports like that. They make me cringe. THe guy should either state or not state and back it up with evidence ...... I always put a comparative table of above w/line and below w/line etc., also mentioning factors such as length of time out of water, hull cleaned off, weather conditions prevailing etc. ...... all factors that may or may not have an influence on the survey.

Again sorry - but I hope the survey was better in other areas and also that you didn't pay too much.

I make no apologies to anyone for my crass attitude to this - as a Professional Marine Surveyor etc. I really do get uptight about things like this ......

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[jonjo]

Thanks everyone.

Let me clarify a few things because I have a high regard for this surveyor and have used him twice before.

I am in the process of buying the yacht. I was not present with the surveyor but spent two days looking over the yacht. The yacht does need a comprehensive osmosis treatment, no argument about that.

The survey does indeed say more about the state of osmosis but my concern is that if I were to sell the yacht within 10 years a potential buyer could reasonably expect to have a read through this survey.

The words "Advanced osmosis" could alarm me but the state of the yacht as seen by me does not warrant this description, maybe there is a difference between lay and professional osmosis grading.

Here is my scale.

Developing Osmosis: Microscopic swelling under the gel coat that only a pro would detect under a clear gel coat.

Light Osmosis: Small areas of pimple sized blisters easily collapsed with a fingernail.

Moderate Osmosis: General areas of blisters up to 10mm but again only under the gel coat and permanently collapsible blisters with a fingernail.

Heavy Osmosis: Some blisters 10+mm under a single layer of laminate and likely to bounce back after being depressed by a finger.

Advanced Osmosis: Large blisters under multiple layers of laminate and too rigid to be depressed by a finger. If pierced with an small screw driver a chunk of laminate could then be levered off the hull. The yacht would be an economic write off unless it would be restored to a high market value.

In the case of the yacht I am buying, all osmosis I have seen is in the light to moderate category. Maybe I should ask the surveyor to write an addendum to the survey that rates the osmosis in these lay terms.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Why would a buyer of your boat, years hence, expect to see your 'old' survey report?

Why would you even mention its existence?

 

[Guest]

Osmosis can actually be serious without the quoted blistering etc. Rare but true.

Blistering is the result of gel delaminating away from underlying strata due to internal presure. Often found hard and if tried to depress - thick smelly liquid oozes out.

Structural loss of hull is not a fact that I have met yet ... not due to osmosis or wicking etc. Yes due to collision / fire or other etc.

Economics is the deciding factor. Many boats carry serious O for years with owners unaware or just ignore it.

It is my experience that Insurance are now starting to slowly realise this and some are actually not requiring it to be so formally checked. If its reported as bad - they care, if its played down they don't.

All boats are repairable .... depends what price you pay and how you value it ....

Your descriptions are not bad ... but your conclusions I would lessen .... !!

Finally I surveyed a 28ftr .... blistered all over .... I had never seen anything like it - except in books / photos etc. I metered it to see how far UP the hull it had progressed and it had just stopped a little above the watermark .... that indicates how bad this had progressed.
The boat was treated in Hayling Yacht Co. ..... by stripping, drying and re-coating etc. That boat is as good now as it ever was and its 6 years down the road ..... Cost was then about 4 grand ... can't remember exact ... but around that figure.

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[oldgit]

Jonjo.you have prob seen mentioned before but a visit to www.yachtsurvey.com.is a very interesting hour or two well spent.Loads of pictures illustrating all that has been posted here.

Oooh look its still not dark and its nearly 5pm

 

[jonjo]

> Why would a buyer of your boat, years hence

There is an expectation that osmosis treatment will last 10 years, so buyers might wish to know about the starting condition of a hull.

Also during my search for a yacht over the past 11 months brokers have handed over survey reports to me without owners knowing. At the end of the day distance and uncertainty are the greatest obstacles to the process of selling an old yacht, brokers know this and hope a sneak view of a survey will help things along.

 

[jonjo]

> Your descriptions are not bad ... but your conclusions I would lessen .... !!

Can I clarify in which direction I am out.

Would you categorise my "moderate osmosis" description as "light"?

> The boat was treated in Hayling Yacht Co. ..... by stripping, drying
> and re-coating etc. That boat is as good now as it ever was and its
> 6 years down the road

Was that treatment pre HotVac? I am hoping to dry this new yacht during a 1 year refit ashore, the surveyor thinks a poly tent/skirt will help get the moisture readings down to the right level.

 

[Guest]

I think the conclusions you draw .... may be a bit harsh, but generally I wouldn't say you are far of the mark .... this is conversation not techinics ...

The treatment at HYCo was pre HotVac and the boat in question I surveyed before and after. I still see the boat regularly and as the owner is a friend of mine I give the once over now and again to see how it fairs as time goes on .... its fine and I would have no qualms about buying the boat of him should he ever sell !! apart from the dosh of course !!!!!

There is nought really wrong with the old ways of doing it, as long as the moisture levels really do go down. Technology has moved on leaps and bounds with this as other areas and tents etc. are old hat and subject to care .... done wrong and you waste all that effort ..... sadly I believe that there is no real shortcut to doing it properly and successfully. AND I would add that care must be taken in later surveys to make sure the surveyor understands treatment has been done ..... there have been cases where lack of knowledge has led to some disasters .....

But please - it all depends on so many factors .... value of boat and so many other things as to whether its worth the effort .... and I would say that 99.99% of the time owners go through it, have sleepless nights about the cost, but once its all done ....they sail for years glad that they did it with peace of mind.

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Guest]

Survey reports ....

If the Broker has a copy of an old survey report .... where did it come from - if not from the owner. If the owner is stupid enough to hand over a suspect report to a broker - he deserves all the stick he gets !!!!

I'm sorry if I sound cruel - but whether its a car, house, bike or boat ---- it is caveat emptor on s/hand and all care and survey should be taken to try and prevent a mistake.

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[bige]

sorry its late,bought a sadler 25 2 seasons ago,came with a surveyors report,minor wicking reported with a sovreign damp meter . i use a £500 .00
meter in my work, within the caravan industry. the boat was ashore for 9 months
before i bought her.so could not get a fair reading,took a chance and sailed for the 2002 season.Hauled her ashore and checked her within 3 days and guess what?
between 8 and 15 all over the hull on a scale of 0 to 99 pretty reasuring. most of the survey said i should contact a rigging specialst to check rigging,a marine engineer to check the engine etc.the only valid point was that the washboards needed re-varnishing and a few other bits worthy of comment,checked with local boat yard and they could not find (minor wicking) i know they have to cover them selves but ?????

 

[Guest]

Wicking .... Soveriegn

I take it the wicking was the Surveyors determination .... as how can a Soveriegn decide wicking or other ? I'm not getting at you ..... just that a report should be careful in its determinations and information it gives to the Client !

Anyway the Soveriegn is not a deep penetrating instrument - reagrdless of all the shouts and screams I will get in reply !!!!


Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Wicking .... Soveriegn

Very good surveyors have their blank moments, just like the rest of us. I once had a survey done where the surveyor insisted we draw all the fixings to the chainplates because he'd found stains one one (this was a huge job). I found an ancient rusting shackle still tight around the bottom of the shroud - the obvious source of the stains. Am I to write the surveyor off as an idiot? I don't think so. He's been superb in other circumstances.

 

[Guest]

Agreed .... includes me !!

BUT .... the report and its findings often becomes the basis of Insurance Co. requiremenst and can be a pain to get changed. So care must be exercised when reccomendations etc. are put in ....

I do not say that Surveyors are bad .... but should be careful.


Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !