Survey etiquette ???

[jac]

Why is the buyer expected to give the seller a deposit to cover costs for which the seller is not responsible?



Love it when people say "It's different" without attempting to make any explanation.

fair point - apologies. I think it's been implied in other responses but to explain.

With a house survey or AA car inspection, no legal charge can be put on the house or car. The surveyor will be paid directly by the purchaser and the existing owner lets the surveyor look at it.

With a boat, it will be moved and then lifted by a commercial operator who will need paying, usually for a lift and hold . Whilst the purchaser should pay directly, if anything goes wrong further costs may be incurred. For example, assume the surveyor checks the seacocks and in trying to open it, he applies excessive force and it shears off. The boat can't be relaunched - at best it might be replace a seacock but in reality it will mean the boat needing to be moved, blocked off and then relaunched whilst the mess is sorted out. The additional costs for lift in and block off would be due to a 3rd party who would be entitled to them in any circumstances, regardless of whoever was at fault for the damage.

In a less extreme case, let's assume that the yard tows the boat to the travelhoist, does the lift and relaunches but then the prospective owner wants to have a look so the boat is left short term on a mooring. Purchaser turns up too late and boats has to stay on visitor mooring overnight clocking up £30 in fees.

In such cases, the prospective owner may decide not to proceed and will therefore not be prepared to pay, meaning that the vendor is liable for the whole lot. Having the deposit gives you some leverage.

With a house or car, firstly it would be very difficult for that sort of damage / scenarios to happen but certainly possible that damage might happen. It would be very difficult though for the surveyor to cause a 3rd party to incur costs so no risk of unpaid bills. More importantly though there would be no way that any 3rd party could then execute a writ and impound the car/house.

 

[Tranona]

Strange boaty practices!

I got into trouble with our broker for immediately arranging a survey after making an offer over the phone (which was accepted) on our boat after viewing.

I thought he'd be pleased with the progress and the £500 outlay on the survey would show my seriousness.....apparently yachting doesn't work like this....!.

The broker should only protecting your and his client's interests by following the normal process of having deposit and contract in place before proceeding to survey. Without that the seller could quite legitimately withdraw from the deal and you would lose your £500 survey cost.

Not difficult to follow the recognized process.

 

[xyachtdave]

The broker should only protecting your and his client's interests by following the normal process of having deposit and contract in place before proceeding to survey. Without that the seller could quite legitimately withdraw from the deal and you would lose your £500 survey cost.

Not difficult to follow the recognized process.

I am unusual in the respect that I don't muck people around when buying or selling.

Shame we need this recognised process that's not difficult to follow.

 

[Tranona]

I am unusual in the respect that I don't muck people around when buying or selling.

Shame we need this recognised process that's not difficult to follow.

Years of experience from the professionals who have to deal with the problem people who do not behave in the same way as you claim to do.

Ask yourself why they bother with all the extra work involved in doing it properly if it can all be done with a nod and a wink from a total stranger.

 

[jac]

I am unusual in the respect that I don't muck people around when buying or selling.

Shame we need this recognised process that's not difficult to follow.

Like many things, I suspect that boat buying confirms to the Pareto Principle so whilst you may well be in the 80% that don't cause many problems the brokers will be building their processes to deal with the 20% that do.

Not boat related but we didn't sell a house to a woman who put in an offer, was accepted, then pulled out because she didn't like the windows. No cost incurred by us but transpose her approach to a boat seller and you would be out of pocket.

 

[jwilson]

The problem with that approach is that you have no commitment from either side before you incur expenditure. The survey and associated costs is for the buyers benefit, so why should the seller pay? Of course he is free to offer that as an incentive to a potential buyer, but why should he without any commitment?

The purpose of the deposit is twofold. First it removes the boat from the market so the buyer is confident that the boat is his and the seller knows he has a secure buyer. Second it provides some protection against losses. Remember the debt for a lift does not attach to the person instructing the yard, but eventually to the boat.

Best if the initial agreement between buyer or and seller is formalized in a contract that lays out the terms and conditions of the transaction. That minimises the chances of either party reneging on the deal. The model contracts provided for example by the RYA or the YDSA carefully balance rights and obligations of both parties and are well proven. There is no reason why they cannot be used in private transactions and they can also be modified to incorporate specific terms or conditions if both parties agree.

+1
Imagine that you are the buyer. You agree £50,000 subject to survey with the seller, but put down no deposit and sign no agreement, though you agree to pay for the survey and maybe the liftout as well (as is usual). On the day of the liftout someone else comes along, has a quick informal chat to the surveyor and looks at the hull himself, and goes to the seller with a no-survey offer of £51,000 - and he can complete tomorrow.

Do you still think you have a purchase? Even though you've spent maybe £750+ on the lift and/or surveyors fee......

The deposit and the contract also protects the seller - it shows him you are serious, and if the surveyor causes damage or the lift fee is not paid and the buyer does not proceed you have leverage.

Use the RYA contract for private sales - and remember that the contract is just that, once the sale proceeds you also need to make out a Bill of Sale to complete the deal. The MCA have one on their website to download that is designed for registered boats but can be used by for any boat. I have lost count of the number of people I've met who think that an RYA Sale & Purchase form is the final paperwork. And under no circumstances accept a cheque or bankers draft. Both can "unclear" after they show on your account as "cleared". Bank transfers though are pretty safe.

 

[[3889]]

Remember the debt for a lift does not attach to the person instructing the yard, but eventually to the boat.

I think not. Where in English or Scottish law is a boat described as a legal entity, able to enter into a contract?

 

[Tranona]

I think not. Where in English or Scottish law is a boat described as a legal entity, able to enter into a contract?

Not claptrap at all. Debts accrue to boats under maritime law. You often see boatyards selling off boats to recoup unpaid fees. The marina has the right to impound a boat if there are outstanding bills related to work carried out on the boat. See Dom Buckley's post above. The seller can of course avoid this by settling the bill himself that the potential purchaser has incurred, but best of luck trying to recover from that person.

When you sell a boat you have to sign on the Bill of Sale that the vessel is free of all charges. You cannot do that if there is an outstanding boatyard or marina bill.

 

[xyachtdave]

Years of experience from the professionals who have to deal with the problem people who do not behave in the same way as you claim to do.

Ask yourself why they bother with all the extra work invoked in doing it properly if it can all be done with a nod and a wink from a total stranger.

I don't think I mentioned a nod and a wink, brokers are an important link with paperwork, finance etc.

I'm just the sort of person that 'claims' to a) make sure I've either got the money or arranged access to finance and b) decide what I want and research it before picking up the phone or viewing something expensive.

I do of course appreciate some people don't bother with the pre purchase leg work, I'd assume they are a minority and anyone who wants to spend £500 surveying a boat that's already on the hard is serious.

 

[Tranona]

I don't think I mentioned a nod and a wink, brokers are an important link with paperwork, finance etc.

I'm just the sort of person that 'claims' to a) make sure I've either got the money or arranged access to finance and b) decide what I want and research it before picking up the phone or viewing something expensive.

I do of course appreciate some people don't bother with the pre purchase leg work, I'd assume they are a minority and anyone who wants to spend £500 surveying a boat that's already on the hard is serious.

You might think you are in the majority but experience shows that you are probably not. The big challenge, if you ask any broker, (or private seller for that mattter) is sorting out who is serious and who is not. Words and promises are cheap. Getting commitment through a deposit and contract ensures you are dealing with a serious person. Why would anybody commit to the expense of a survey without having a firm offer accepted and a contract in place? Sellers can be just as capricious as buyers and without that commitment on both sides he can just walk leaving you with a £500 bill and no boat.

 

[xyachtdave]

I think we can agree it's shame this is a necessary practice.

Now explain to be me about price crashes and there being no buyers for something that's overpriced.....

 

[[3889]]

You often see boatyards selling off boats to recoup unpaid fees. The marina has the right to impound a boat if there are outstanding bills related to work carried out on the boat.

Yes, after one party to the work / storage contract has already agreed to a lien on the vessel.

When you sell a boat you have to sign on the Bill of Sale that the vessel is free of all charges. You cannot do that if there is an outstanding boatyard or marina bill.

I suspect I could sign it - very easily - though hardly relevant as lift charges are billed to me - not my boat.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, after one party to the work / storage contract has already agreed to a lien on the vessel.


I suspect I could sign it - very easily - though hardly relevant as lift charges are billed to me - not my boat.

You should look at the terms and conditions of the marina or yard. Although the work is billed to an individual if he fails to pay the debt will accrue to boat. If that is the case you cannot truthfully sign that the boat is free of any charges. The new owner may well find that the marina will prevent him from removing the boat until the bill is paid.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Because the charges are attached to the vessel, not the individual. If the buyer does a runner, then the seller is left in the position of having to pay, or risk having his boat impounded under Admiralty writ.

<blackadder>

Some sort of "contract" would seem to be in order, then.

</blackadder>

I mean, how hard can it be for the yard to insist on payment in advance for a survey lift?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Yes. Seems odd that anybody would accept advice based on one individual's random experience rather than the collective wisdom of those who do this sort of thing for a living.

Because nobody who does anything for a living has ever had a financial interest in the processes used.

 

[xyachtdave]

<blackadder>

Some sort of "contract" would seem to be in order, then.

</blackadder>

I mean, how hard can it be for the yard to insist on payment in advance for a survey lift?

,

It's not an insurmountable problem this yard fees business then...

 

[Tranona]

I think we can agree it's shame this is a necessary practice)

No, don't agree it's a shame. Too long in the tooth. Safer to follow good practice than to rely onpromises from strangers. Large sums of money often involved in such transactions. Why would one take risks if they can be avoided?

 

[Tranona]

Because nobody who does anything for a living has ever had a financial interest in the processes used.

However can you possibly say that? A broker earns his living from successful transactions. It is in his interest to keep both parties happy to ensure the deal goes through and he gets paid. Ever wondered why they prefer to dal in this structured way?

 

[JumbleDuck]

fair point - apologies. I think it's been implied in other responses but to explain.

Thanks. Sorry I was a bit snotty.

Whilst the purchaser should pay directly, if anything goes wrong further costs may be incurred. For example, assume the surveyor checks the seacocks and in trying to open it, he applies excessive force and it shears off. The boat can't be relaunched - at best it might be replace a seacock but in reality it will mean the boat needing to be moved, blocked off and then relaunched whilst the mess is sorted out. The additional costs for lift in and block off would be due to a 3rd party who would be entitled to them in any circumstances, regardless of whoever was at fault for the damage.

Another way of looking at it is that if the surveyor applies wholly reasonable force and the seacock comes off, the prospective buyer (probably now the ex-prospective buyer) is expected to put the fault right for the owner.

In a less extreme case, let's assume that the yard tows the boat to the travelhoist, does the lift and relaunches but then the prospective owner wants to have a look so the boat is left short term on a mooring. Purchaser turns up too late and boats has to stay on visitor mooring overnight clocking up £30 in fees.

And again, if the owner says "Stick it in a visitor's berth after the survey - I want to <do some minor work>" and then can't make it, the prospective buyer is potentially being setup to pay.

The notion that the seller should pay to reserve the boat is another curious one. It's the seller who is paying out wads of cash - to the yard, to the surveyor, perhaps more - which /she will lose if the seller decides not to proceed. There is a good argument, or at least an argument, that the buyer ought to be giving money to the seller as indemnity against losses if the sale falls through.

It's all very peculiar.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The broker should only protecting your and his client's interests by following the normal process of having deposit and contract in place before proceeding to survey. Without that the seller could quite legitimately withdraw from the deal and you would lose your £500 survey cost.

Why should the seller give the buyer money? It's the buyer who stands to lose out if the seller changes his mind.