Surly - Shipwrights Arms, Helford

[KevO]

Maybe second and third+ homes anywhere in the country sould be subject to similar additional taxation... this problem isn't purely a Cornish one... look how the Welsh took direct action some years ago. Maybe it would free up homes right across the country. Gawd knows there is a shortage of affordable housing pretty much everywhere. Lots of communities in picturesque areas have been killed off by the holiday home/occasional occupancy trade.

 

[Seagreen]

Mate I don't have problem with people moving down, living in and becoming part of the community... but the well-heeled second or third home (or I bought it as an investment and just rent it out don't ya know) crowd can get te feck by my book. Some beautiful vibrant communities have been decimated by that whole ideal. Look at Mousehole in that bleddy Caroline Quentine (sic?) documentary series a little while ago... come to Cornwall... buy cheap (compared to where you normally live) and suck it all up and go home after. Loads of beautiful places are so dead in the winter that the schools get closed cos there aren't many kids growing up there anymore, alongside the pubs, restaurants, garages and other businesses that just can't survive on summer season populations alone. Then the heart of the community is gone and the indigenious people get forced out. Local kids starting out can't even afford a single bed-roomed flat 'cos some other chap paid over the odds and bought it so the family could enjoy 2 weeks in July.

Totally with you on that score. Last time I stayed in Mousehole was 14 years ago in a damp rented flat in late march for an Easter break. The place was DEAD. Around the old lower town, all the lights were out except one house with a large Merc parked outside. The upper town had more lights on, but still felt dead. This happens to loads of places. I found Clovelly to be a depressing Disneyfied theme park. Polperro had a woman touting herself in the car park as a "have yer picture taken with a genuine (stuffed toy) Piskey!"
Sometimes the economic realities are harsh, but I would never ever buy a "second home" in a tourist area. Rental property, BTL is one thing, but I viscerally hate the vanity and waste of a "holiday home". From grim family experience a holiday home is neither a home, nor much of a holiday unless you are a DIY zombie. I also hate the effect on local housing shortages.

Glad to see the pubs have improved though, btw.

 

[Seajet]

All very good points, but when you stand on Porthleven harbourside in the winter and can only see three or four lights on around the village it's enough to make your heart break. What to do? Unless indeginous populations make it untennable/unpleasant for these ultra wealthy '2 weeks per year' types then how does the balance get restored.
I'm not promoting or condoning any kind of action, merely thinking out loud...

Simon,

for what it's worth I agree, while I love Cornwall for several personal reasons I wouldn't want to move there unless I could contribute.

Now, I promise you this is true...

I once for my sins worked in a chandlery in Chichester.

one day I and the owner ( Dennis, a good bloke sadly gone now ) were standing around when a lady in tweeds, obviously not a sailing type, strolled in.

She marched up and said " have you got any of those half eaten pies ? "

I immediatedly began to crack up, and left it to Dennis...

" I beg your pardon Madam ? "

" My son has a cottage in Wales so he wishes to leave a half eaten meal on the table in the middle of the week to pretend someone is present so they don't burn it down, now do you have those imitation half eaten pies ?"

By this time I didn't dare even make eye contact with Dennis, I was so close to cracking up with laughter...

Dennis, supreme old school, replied " Madam, this is a yacht chandlery selling equipment for boats; sadly our remit does not include replica half eaten comestibles".

So she harumphed and strolled out.

By this time I was fit to explode, when recovered I asked Dennis, " Did I just dream that ?! "

And you think you only get them in Cornwall !

 

[Tintin]

Maybe second and third+ homes anywhere in the country sould be subject to similar additional taxation... this problem isn't purely a Cornish one... look how the Welsh took direct action some years ago. Maybe it would free up homes right across the country. Gawd knows there is a shortage of affordable housing pretty much everywhere. Lots of communities in picturesque areas have been killed off by the holiday home/occasional occupancy trade.

+1 but also towns.

All those provincials have pushed the house prices up in london village so much dahling.

 

[Scillyboy]

When you consider what holiday options folk could have for the price of a holiday cottage, you realise that there must be an element of vanity. With a second home, you have to go to the same place all the time. You could toast your toes in the Caribbean every year, or rent somewhere different each time....and, as a previous poster mentioned, there's the DIY you have to do each time you go here. I have always been convinced that much of it is being able to drop it into the conversation with your Home Counties neighbours. Investment? Not these days.

Or, just buy a big boat instead!

 

[jonjo]

And then apply the same tax to any incomers, eh?

Far too complex to administer, the Inland Revenue would veto that, local authorities on the otherhand would be salivating at the prospect of double rates on holiday homes.

And how do you define "local"?

I only used the word once as in registered local elector. There is no ambiguity as to which electoral register covers a property.

And what about the second or third homes of those cornish that have made their home eksewhere?

This would not be a Cornishman's law it is about qualifying a prime residential address for any UK property owner in any country where the law is applied. If an ex resident of Cornwall sets up home in a more prosperous region then after a grace period their previous property in Cornwall becomes a holiday home unless it is let on a shorthold tenancy or longer contract.

And what about those cornish that own several homes in the county?

If they are operated as holiday homes the double local rates charge applies and why not? The new law is about restoring communities, if a village property is empty due to an absentee owner living in Liskeard or London the same problem remains.

 

[taz]

Obviously it has to be the fault of those nasty people from the city, not the locals that creamed off bigger profits from the sales of property to those nasty city folk.

They were under no pressure to sell, they saw an opportunity to make more and took it, and why not?

Chicken or egg?

 

[robertj]

Obviously it has to be the fault of those nasty people from the city, not the locals that creamed off bigger profits from the sales of property to those nasty city folk.

They were under no pressure to sell, they saw an opportunity to make more and took it, and why not?

Chicken or egg?

that's like condeming the red Indians for allowing the White man steal his land for a poultry sum.
Like us Cornish they they knew no different, the sly city slickers knew where to buy next we were lambs to the slaughter!!!
I for one don't blame people investing down here, the honest business man will rent out the property to long term renters which stabilises and bonds the local communities which carry on the village life whether they are indiginous or not.
It's the second home owners with the wealth to just leave it empty which damages this fragile human Eco system here.
As far as taxing more I am totally against.
I don't have a clue how to redress this and the welsh way would be rather extreme.
I just hope that for every action there is a toattaly opposite reaction, possibly the rich kids will see that living here is truely a good way of life and take up full time residence, who knows!
If us Cornish think we have problems look at the plight of the scillonians.

 

[Blueboatman]

Perhaps a case of this years chicken sells out so no next-years eggs?

Local authorities have acted likewise, selling off their own buildings then renting them back..

On a more positive note I was amazed to see so many students bringing Falmouth to life last summer, tho doubtless the rents go to canny out of town 'investors'?

 

[SimbaDog]

Being Cornish I would sadly have to agree somewhat, but, training and pay is paramount the old saying is 'if you pay peanuts u get monkeys' a lot of the owners of these establishment are not Cornish.
The rip off attitude is indeed there but take solice that they rip us off aswell when the tourist leave.

There you have it!
In general I find you get much better & friendly service from locals.
I look forward to trying the Shipwrights again soon

 

[Lakesailor]

Two years ago the waitress in the Helford River SC was a stunner. Sweet sixteen and knew exactly what effect she was having on old men every time she leant over!!

She knicked too many chips, lost her job and is now on the dole

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

We have a similar problem on the Isle of Wight.

Not sure what the solution is, but I can tell you that just taxing second homes will not fix it.

If you can afford a second home you can probably afford a little more council tax.

 

[SimbaDog]

Mate I don't have problem with people moving down, living in and becoming part of the community... but the well-heeled second or third home (or I bought it as an investment and just rent it out don't ya know) crowd can get te feck by my book. Some beautiful vibrant communities have been decimated by that whole ideal. Look at Mousehole in that bleddy Caroline Quentine (sic?) documentary series a little while ago... come to Cornwall... buy cheap (compared to where you normally live) and suck it all up and go home after. Loads of beautiful places are so dead in the winter that the schools get closed cos there aren't many kids growing up there anymore, alongside the pubs, restaurants, garages and other businesses that just can't survive on summer season populations alone. Then the heart of the community is gone and the indigenious people get forced out. Local kids starting out can't even afford a single bed-roomed flat 'cos some other chap paid over the odds and bought it so the family could enjoy 2 weeks in July.

I was brought up in Cornwall (school in Penzance) & am currently converting an old barn as a family home for myself, this has never been lived in before & I am also building 2 new barns which will be holiday lets. The whole development is being done with local labour & will I hope bring some money into the community when finished.
Comero Weeth

 

[Seajet]

We have a similar problem on the Isle of Wight.

Not sure what the solution is, but I can tell you that just taxing second homes will not fix it.

If you can afford a second home you can probably afford a little more council tax.

Ex-SolentBoy,

if you read back a few posts I mentioned the IOW as a similar situation to Cornwall, whenever I visit the Island I get rather angry about the huge amount of talent and skilled people going to waste, - and having a thin time of it - skills from aeroplanes and hovercraft to boats of all descriptions, ships too in WWII...

I don't think banning incomers to the Island or Cornwall is any answer, but generating local prosperity may well be !

 

[Frankie-H]

Very sadly there is nothing new in any of this.

I was first made aware of this very problem about 40 years ago. The A12 was opening up the coasts of Norfolk and Suffolk. The wealthy were buying up all those sweet little cottages for next to nothing and the young were being displaced.

Drive round the towns and villages of Provence, during the winter. As you have described, the shops, restaurants and even many of the bars are closed and the very few locals left appear to be shell shocked. The Dutch, Germans and even the Brits arrive in their droves for the summer. The locals, who run the businesses come from Paris of Lyon and the produce can not be afforded by the elderly original population. The foreigners crow about their sweet little places in the sun and the caretakers make a little money by looking after them for most of the year.

Now Cornwall. I read, with great sadness, exactly the same comments. I was dragged up in the country and well remember the coaches, which brought the Townies out to drop their litter in our fields. I well remember the first of the rich, who came to buy up our houses. Our locals were paid a local wage and lived very well off the land as well. Their houses were passed from generation to generation or occasionally sold within the community. Peanuts to the rich newcomers but a realistic price for us. One again prices shoot through the roof. Yuppies talk about their charming little week-end place, which had been a family home for generations.

What to do. Christ knows but something must be done. The answer is not to say that all country folk must be paid the same as a dealer in the city of London. The country can not afford to pay those rates.

Perhaps the Channel Islands have the right idea. A 2 tier property market, when only established residents can buy on the local market.

I suspect that a 2 tier tax system might be some of the answer. Please never tell anybody that I said this. I will deny it to my dying day but something must be done and it can not just be left to market forces.

 

[Scillyboy]

Fraught with problems, but perhaps local Councils should have the power to co-opt properties that are unoccupied for a total of, say, nine months a year, and to let them at a low rent (paid to the owner, less a handling fee) to a local family on a 5-year lease. Sale price would then be with sitting tenant, current tenants to be given first refusal. That would force a few decisions. Exceptions. of course, e.g. if it's the only property you own, or some such....

 

[Frankie-H]

Fraught with problems, but perhaps local Councils should have the power to co-opt properties that are unoccupied for a total of, say, nine months a year, and to let them at a low rent (paid to the owner, less a handling fee) to a local family on a 5-year lease. Sale price would then be with sitting tenant, current tenants to be given first refusal. That would force a few decisions. Exceptions. of course, e.g. if it's the only property you own, or some such....

I quite like some of your ideas but it would take a dictatorship and military intervention to deprive people of their property. Not that I am who wholly against such things.

 

[halcyon]

Fraught with problems, but perhaps local Councils should have the power to co-opt properties that are unoccupied for a total of, say, nine months a year, and to let them at a low rent (paid to the owner, less a handling fee) to a local family on a 5-year lease. Sale price would then be with sitting tenant, current tenants to be given first refusal. That would force a few decisions. Exceptions. of course, e.g. if it's the only property you own, or some such....

Depends how low a rent you plan, a new local estate has a number of low cost rental houses. Non were taken due to local wages being so low, the low cost rents were to high. The council has now filled them with single parent families.

Brian

 

[robertj]

Earlier this year while at Helford I went for a pint at the Shipwrights Arms.

They had a few customers outside, but the service was surly at best.

However I try to not damn a place first time around so yesterday evening I gave it another go.

And it was even surlier. My friend had to wait while barman finished chatting up a girl, despite the bar being empty. He was grunted at. The drinks were pored with absolute minimal contact, either eye or verbal. Then he paid, and said barman immediately returned to texting someone, and tried to ignore our request for where to order some food.

Food order had to be done with a lady that I think is the owner. Very brusque. very efficient. very unfriendly again.

Heading out of bar I commented to my friend about the service. It was overheard by the chef cooking on the outside BBQ.

Later when we left, having decided that one drink was enough in such a glum establishment, the chef was outside having a fag. I started to chat to him and commented on the barman. His reply was merely to say “I thought you would say something" in a very dismissive way.

It's no wonder the place is so empty. I would advise everyone to try somewhere else. This is not the sort of warm welcome that Cornwall needs to be giving people.

Such a shame.

Anyone visited in the last few days?

 

[fisherman]

Same old, same old:
'Our fault for selling to incomers in the first place'... but if I sell cheap and local how will I afford another home?

'This second home is my only pension, sob'...well if I didn't have to pay so much for accomodation maybe I could afford a pension too.
'We bring in business'....Hmmmm. The rent goes back to the owner, the agency fee stays here, and the changeover job, couple of hours at minimum wage sure is a doozy, and you can't do more than two. It is undeniable that there is substantial other holiday spending. We had a thriving holiday industry before, (about 1970 when it all took off due to M-way access) where did folk stay then?

'We live in Berkshire, we have a house in Malpas, but it's not the same as it used to be, all second homes now'...actually heard this in a local shop. Many fondly imagine they are part of the community when they spend their two weeks here.

Most second home owners rely on letting to defray the cost, (I have a grudging respect for those who can afford to leave them empty). Long term rents are driven by holiday rent levels, and not affordable on local incomes, so tenants receive housing benefit, so we are subsidising the owners' loan repayments via council tax.


The fault lies with the authorities for not allowing enough houses to be built to satisfy the demand, whether for second or local homes. As income disparity between here and civilisation will always exist there will always be competition for them from over the border, pushing up prices. You can't legislate about occupancy, except by section 52 agreement restricting to local need occupants, but this is unpopular with developers. I think the council should buy land which is otherwise not eligible for development and build houses to sell at 'local needs' section 52 values.

In re The Shipwright's, if they don't do food they will fail to make a return on investment, BUT as I understand, the owner (the owner of the Riverside holiday homes) is fairly philanthropic about getting a return.....On the other hand, as I suggested before, this pub was the subject of a refused 'change of use' application. There have been instances of pubs being allowed to drift into loss-making to enable such development.