Super bargain on a 1995 70ft Canados, what is the catch ?

[BartW]

Last summer, Oddvar from Norway, came across story’s of Blue Angel on the internet.
He fancied a similar idea to purchase a big old boat.
He send me an email with some questions, and after exchanging quite a few emails, He got an addiction for a big old Italian mobo.
Last year he visited some boats (Canados, Versilcraft and Falcon) on offer in Spain, and showed interest for a Canados 23 in Sardinia at a very good deal.

Last week he contacted me that he had a agreement on a low offer for this boat and now she’s in Lavagna Italy.
I was so much impressed with his deal, that I was seduced to go and have a look myself.
Last Monday morning I flew to Milan Bergamo, and drove to Lavagna Genua with a rentcar.
There I met Oddvar and the broker on this 1995 Canados 23, it’s a 4 year younger but completely similar boat like mine.
Hull is GRP, deck and superstructure is wood.
She has a slightly different finishing style, less stainless steel, a bit more modern finishing.

The boat is on a 5 year lease that will terminate in 3 months,
She had one big engine failure in 2011, and then the owner decided to replace both 16yo Man 1100HP engines by the newer Man 1350HP common rail version with new gearboxes and new shaft seals, …
At the same moment they replaced the genny’s, and did a total rebuild of the E/R, new isolation, new hydraulic tubing, painting bilges, etc….

The asking price was 350K, but after some haggling Oddvar got a agreement on a price a little higher then the cost of the two new engines (He has seen the invoice). Not a lot more then half the asking price.

Here are some pics:

The steps to the Utility room, are better then my original ladder, and the hatch is bigger.

Similar SS door, but this one has a more modern vertically curved shape.

Teac deck needs to be replaced completely, on some spots too much sanded off so that there is nothing left of the caulking groove,
There are many leaks in to the cabins.

I like the anker going 45° down, (what is the name for that ?) instead of horizontal on the deck,
would be a very nice update on mine, but costly just for esthetics.

Saloon and galley, all the same like BA (exept my day toilet, and panga wood floor)

Vip Cabin

Vip Cabin Bathroom

SB and P cabin

Master cabin with heads and dressing room.

More modern hatch to crew cabin

Crew cabin heads, looks almost as nice as my refurbished cabin.

 

[BartW]

Steps to the U/R, a transom door would be better, but this is acceptable.
Actually they used this as crew cabin, the shelf behind the steps is a bed.

On the other side of the U/R, toilet, washing machine and dryer, there is a desalinator as well.

Completely refurbished engineroom, new silent exhausts, …

New Onan genny’s, and refurbished airco’s, 2 new freshwater pump.

New ZF geabox

New sterngland

One new toilet pump, the other is orriginal.

Furniture on the FB in very good condition.
4.3m tender with 60Hp 4stroke Suzuki

But then the area’s that need some work,
A part of the super structure (around the frond windows) needs repainting. There are crack’s and blistering below the upper painting (appears a quick not well done job),

The front window has been and still is leaking very badly

The alluminium on the side doors seems to have cancer

Some parts of the gunwale are badly rotten, due to moisture inside.
On some seems were mushrooms !

There are leaks in lots of placed in the old teac deck

This one in the saloon is very visable and looks very sad.

Sea trial was not possible, due to bad weather, but engines running at idle here, 600rpm, 15L/hr for each engine. (30L/hr/engine at 1000Rpm at no load)
The other page showed 285 hours for each engine !

Could this be a good deal on a nice boat after spending roughly:
50k on new teac deck
15K inside gunwhale rebuilding
20K repainting part of the superstructure
10K replacing some inside veneer panels near windows

Oddvar is going ahead making a purchase contract
then he will have a professional survey on the Hull and the engines, …

He is not yet a forum member but might be reading this.
I advised him to get a login, and try to get other opinions and more advice

 

[rafiki_]

Gorgeous looking boat Bart. Looks like the new owner has a fantastic bargain.

 

[BartW]

Gorgeous looking boat Bart. What would you estimate it will cost to complete the essential rectification?

100K as posted just here above your post (very rough estimation)

 

[rafiki_]

100K as posted just here above your post (very rough estimation)

Yes apologies Bart. Your post appeared, just as I posted mine

 

[vas]

Bart, you've been through a lighter version of that.

Having a GRP hull, any rainwater coming in, will try and rot what's available so yes, lining around the windows will have to go, parts of the floors where it's straining will be soft/gone, relatively easy to patch.
However, if things start adding up, there will be relatively large stripping/rebuilding/refitting operations to be done. How's lining on cabin ceilings especially above gunwales?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that buying a boat at just over the cost of the two engines is a bad idea (after all I also did the same...) but be aware that non-structural rebuilding could be a bit more than you're thinking.

Rip some lining and see what's happening inside!

so, Oddvar, by all means go ahead and start a new rebuilt thread ASAP

cheers

V.

 

[BartW]

parts of the floors where it's straining will be soft/gone, relatively easy to patch.
However, if things start adding up, there will be relatively large stripping/rebuilding/refitting operations to be done. How's lining on cabin ceilings especially above gunwales?

reminds me to a question for you Vas,
On BA I still have 2 very small leaks through the recaulked teac, need to repair,
but in future I would like to renew the teac, as discussed with Oddvar,
wouldn't it be a good solution to add a layer of epoxy and glass fabric on top of the refurbished marine ply deck, before placing the new teac ?
This way there would be a 100% water sealed floor on the deck.
How are you going to do this on Mitos ?
Valid question for Oddvar, perhaps I've asked that already long ago in your rebuild thread


the lining on cabin ceelings is still ok,
its the wood vineer area's near the windows that look affected / need to be replaced in some cabins,
see the 3th from last picture.

 

[Firefly625]

Sounds a complete bargain.... Then you consider the ongoing costs associated, yes a bargain so long as you have the funds to maintain. But a lovely looking boat, and those new engines... Nice.

 

[vas]

Bart,

I've gone through this route eventually, repaired iroko frames/beams, new 15mm marine ply, 3-4coats of epoxy (thinned one to get a bit through the ply) followed by one layer of 280g/m2 mat and a few more coats of epoxy. Will be abraded when time comes for the teak and tick will be fit with most likely the caulking that JFM recommends (don't remember the brand now, but I can find it and I'm sure J will be able to remind us if not)


Wood veneer is probably thinner and the water can go around/soak it and foul the varnish.
The lining is probably on a 4-5mm thin ply (unlikely to be marine ply-wasn't on mine!) and due to having this spongy foam thingy+lining telltales may take much longer to appear. Don't be mistaken, damage will slowly work it's way through. Mind, it's silly simple to just remove the panels, rip off the lining and spongy stuff, sand and check the ply, get it a couple of coats of CPES if it's ok and reline it with new material. That's what I'm doing.

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

non-structural rebuilding could be a bit more than you're thinking.

My thought exactly.
Actually, looking at how darkened some panels are, I'd guess that freshwater had plenty of time to work inside, which lead me to wonder if also some structural parts could be involved.
I mean, assuming that the cross beams of the main deck and f/b are built in wood, IF some of them are rotten (which btw might be hard to find), the carpenter bill could easily skyrocket.
Nonetheless, a helluva lot of boat for the money. And a very good seaboat too, as you well know!

Just a couple of side notes:

That anchor arrangement is called pocket anchor, and while I can confirm that it's much better than the bow roller in more ways than just aesthetic, I actually find that installation a bit weird. I mean, typically the winch is placed right above the chain hole, thus not needing any roller, and granting that the chain grabs the barbotin along the higher possible rotation angle - roughly 180 degrees, in fact. The installation in your pics seems an unnecessary complication - though of course there might be good reasons for it, which are not evident by the pics.

Missing day toilet: aside from the fact that I found it very convenient on BA, am I right in understanding that there is no separation between the p/house seat and the saloon? IIRC, in BA there's a sliding door which allows to separate the p/house from the rest of the boat. That's something very useful in night passages, where you can have people in the saloon watching TV, eating, or whatever, but still keep the p/house completely dark, as it should be at night.

 

[MapisM]

wouldn't it be a good solution to add a layer of epoxy and glass fabric on top of the refurbished marine ply deck, before placing the new teac ?

I don't even dare challenging what Vas has to say on this topic, but fwiw I read/heard a LOT of recommendations against that, for timber construction.
The reason being that, no matter how nicely the wood is sealed by the epoxy resins, it's always possible that with the strong temperature/humidity variations typical of marine environment, some condensation can always develop between the wood and the epoxy.
And as soon as this condensation finds its way, it can only get worse FAST, because it's "trapped" there, which can accelerate exponentially the timber rotting.
Vas, whadduthink?

 

[BartW]

Missing day toilet: aside from the fact that I found it very convenient on BA, am I right in understanding that there is no separation between the p/house seat and the saloon? IIRC, in BA there's a sliding door which allows to separate the p/house from the rest of the boat. That's something very useful in night passages, where you can have people in the saloon watching TV, eating, or whatever, but still keep the p/house completely dark, as it should be at night.

that sliding door is here on this C23 at the same position as in BA,
it glides in the wall between galley and saloon,
and this door can close the gap between galley and FB stairs

That anchor arrangement is called pocket anchor, and while I can confirm that it's much better than the bow roller in more ways than just aesthetic, I actually find that installation a bit weird. I mean, typically the winch is placed right above the chain hole, thus not needing any roller, and granting that the chain grabs the barbotin along the higher possible rotation angle - roughly 180 degrees, in fact. The installation in your pics seems an unnecessary complication - though of course there might be good reasons for it, which are not evident by the pics.

pocket anchor, is that not a anchor that shifts in a "pocket" on the bow side ? (on both sides as on your boat)
on this C23, the single anchor comes out completely on the tip of the bow, but 70cm lower then deck level.
the anchor shaft, glides in a 45° tube, so that the grabing part of the anchor remains outside, flat angainst the bow angle,...
(unfortunately no pics)

 

[MapisM]

that sliding door is here on this C23 at the same position as in BA,
it glides in the wall between galley and saloon, and this door can close the gap between galley and FB stairs

Doh! I would have sweared that in BA that door was further forward, between the galley and the p/house...

pocket anchor, is that not a anchor that shifts in a "pocket" on the bow side ?

Well, I always understood that the term "pocket anchor" refers to anchors whose chain (and shaft, when raised) goes through a tube, rather than above a bow roller. In fact, many boats (mine included) don't actually have any "pockets" in the hull sides, if by that you mean the recessed anchors, like in all Perini yachts, just as an example.
Anywy, glad to stand corrected on this terminology. Surely many around here know better than both of us...!

 

[vas]

I don't even dare challenging what Vas has to say on this topic, but fwiw I read/heard a LOT of recommendations against that, for timber construction.
The reason being that, no matter how nicely the wood is sealed by the epoxy resins, it's always possible that with the strong temperature/humidity variations typical of marine environment, some condensation can always develop between the wood and the epoxy.
And as soon as this condensation finds its way, it can only get worse FAST, because it's "trapped" there, which can accelerate exponentially the timber rotting.
Vas, whadduthink?

we could probably write pages and pages on this topic and I'd like BB opinion, BUT I'm NOT sealing both sides of the ply (as in the inner side is untreated or will be treated with a v.diluted breathable coating-if I ever bother to find one and manage to persuade myself that it's worth the hassle!) so MM what you are claiming simply CANNOT happen. As any humidity that finds its way in will easily dry out on the inner side. I agree if you start sealing and encapsulating ply all around in epoxy IF humidity gets in, there's little to do other than rot the ply.

at least that's my take

V.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

That Canados is the 24 actually designed by Pazkowski later renamed to a 25 with a different stern.

The 23 is the same as the 70S with a different stern, and longer saloon windows.

 

[Why Not]

“BOAT FOR SALE”

An avid young sailor was looking at the notice board in his boat club
in Galway when he spotted a two-year-old 40-ft Beneteau yacht was selling for €200.
At first he thought it was a misprint or the yacht had major problems -
but for the cost of a phone call he just had to check it out.
After making the call, a lady at the other end assured him
all was correct and the boat was in tip-top condition.

She would meet him at the club in an hour to let him look it over.

An hour later she arrived and let him see the boat.

"This has got to be one of the finest yachts I’ve ever seen",
he told the lady, "Why are you asking so little?"

She answered, "My husband left me for his secretary
and we got a divorce.
Under the settlement, I get the house
and he gets the money raised from the sale of the boat."

Zara

"Why Not"

 

[BartW]

That Canados is the 24 actually designed by Pazkowski later renamed to a 25 with a different stern.

are you sure ?
the label on the boat, and the paperwork say's Canados 23,
but you're right that there is a "re" styling compared to a 70s
(almost no stainless steal, different superstructure wall shapes ...)

Do you know about serial numbers,
do they count from zero when they change the type number, or do they continue the counting for a certain size,
fe. my C70s has sr nr 70/19 (printed on many parts inside in the furniture)
I forgot to look what sr nr this boat has, but can easyly get to know...

 

[BartW]

so MM what you are claiming simply CANNOT happen. As any humidity that finds its way in will easily dry out on the inner side. I agree if you start sealing and encapsulating ply all around in epoxy IF humidity gets in, there's little to do other than rot the ply.

I think that the humidity that MapisM is referring at, is the same as what could happen in a wrong isolated house,
but back to our wooden deck floor:
If the outside temperature is cold, you can get condensation on the inside, on the bottom of the Polyester, which is actually inside the ply bottom plates ?

 

[BartW]

Well, I always understood that the term "pocket anchor" refers to anchors whose chain (and shaft, when raised) goes through a tube, rather than above a bow roller. In fact, many boats (mine included) don't actually have any "pockets" in the hull sides, if by that you mean the recessed anchors, like in all Perini yachts, just as an example.
Anywy, glad to stand corrected on this terminology. Surely many around here know better than both of us...!

does anybody know how the stainless steel plates for protecting the hull when the anchor touches are called ?

might consider to do the upgrade anyway by my fantastic Stainless Steel friend (transom door manufacturer) in Fiumicino

 

[adey]

Lovely boat. One day I'd like to buy something like that.
Lavagna is a great place to get work done as there are lots of skilled tradesman there and the Italian economy is still bad and getting worse by the day. The paperwork from Italian lease to Belgium flag won't be that quick or easy and +vat.

Is this it?... http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1995/Canados-Canados-23-M-2661053/Italy