Suntrekka - Rival 32 - History needed for VAT deemed paid

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neilandshiv

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Hi
We are considering buying a 1977 Rival 32 called Suntrekka but the current owner has no documentation to help with proving VAT status. Think she originally had a light blue gel coat, painted dark blue in 2006.
We know this is a long shot but if anyone can help with her history, especially if you were one of the two previous owners, please reply.
The smallest bit of information may just be the piece that helps solve the puzzle
many thanks
neil and shiv
 
" Pleasure yachts built pre-1985 and in EU waters on the 31st of December 1992 are treated as VAT paid. Evidence will be required to show that the vessel was in EU waters on this date."

Good luck...
 
Sorry to appear to state the obvious but I assume you are talking, or have access to, the present owner.

He should have the details of from whom he bought the boat who in turn should have details of the original owner.

Are there no copies of previous Bill of Sale which would include addresses?

Forget about VAT; I would be suspicious of other things if there is a complete lack of history and paperwork.
 
Have access to present owner via broker but answers to questions are short:
I asked: Can you confirm that she is vat paid or vat exempt, and there is documentation to prove this?
Answer: No I can’t prove it!

I do need to chase ownership as was told it was Part 1 registered but just found from registry in Cardiff that it expired in 2002

We would walk away now if it were not for the fact that there are only three R32's for sale in Uk (that we know of), and the other two need lots of work.
 
Its funny isnt it. If I was buying a Morris Marina built in 1977, I would not even think about VAT, but because it is a yacht there seems to be a different set of rules. It seems to me that as VAT was levied from 1973 in the UK, and as all products sold after 1973 were sold with VAT, the onus is on the challenger to prove that VAT was not paid because it was exported.
Once again guilty until proven innocent
 
Good thought: but believe Marine Construction Limited (moulders) and Southampton Boat Building (fit-out) are long gone. Would love for someone to tell where I can find them now
 
[ QUOTE ]
" Pleasure yachts built pre-1985 and in EU waters on the 31st of December 1992 are treated as VAT paid. Evidence will be required to show that the vessel was in EU waters on this date."

[/ QUOTE ]

An interesting thought: I reckon that on any 31st of December any European yacht will have at least a 50% chance of being out of the water, EU or otherwise.
 
If you are that worried about proof of VAT paid status then I would suggest you walk away as it is very unlikely that you will get the proof that you desire for a boat of this age. You can wait until other boats appear on the market, but most boats of this age will have the same issue. The other option is to discuss with the agent the option of paying the VAT now to HMRC based on the purchase price but get an equivalent amount discounted off the agreed price. The seller may just take this hit as the combination of time of the year and developing recession make it a bit of a buyers market.
 
1.You can't just pay the VAT to HMRC - I've read all the stuff
PM me your email and I will forward it to you if you are interested.
2. There arn't that many R32's for sale- as you being an owner of one would know.
3. Original bill of sale/invoice is often with ships papers. Friends with old boats have this and full paper trial of ownership.
 
I agree with NeilandShiv. Unless you are prepared to take the boat out of UK waters or to the channel Islands to complete the sale, then you will find it impossible to pay the VAT to Customs. If the boat sale is completed in the Channel Islands the boat can effectively be re imported to the UK at which point she becomes a VAT able item.

What is the real concern, is it percieved value of the boat for a later sale or a conern about being made to pay the VAT in another country?
 
Really Just want to trace history of boat not discuss VAT
Abroad could come unstuck and get lots of hassel.
In Uk govenment is going into debt big time so collecting VAT from every boat that can't prove they have paid it would generate lot of cash - Do you trust HMRC not to change current policy.
 
I would be tempted to say to the broker, "ok without SOME documentation to prove this boat is pukka - cheerio."

Get him off his arse. After all, he is supposed to be brokering this deal.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the commission involved is not enough for him to get out of bed in the morning.

As for this being the only Rival 32 available - hang around a bit, there will be more. Everything is for sale, it is just a matter of the price.
 
[ QUOTE ]

2. There arn't that many R32's for sale- as you being an owner of one would know.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dont worry - there arent many people who want them either! And I dont mean that in any rude way, simply that as its a "specialised / rare/ whatever" boat, there's a small market and the seller cant afford to lose what is probably the only customer around at the moment.

You might not believe that now but you'll realise that when you come to sell yourself.
 
You have absolutely nothing to worry about if you are buying from an individual. The transaction is not a "chargeable event" because neither you nor the current owner are required to account for VAT. The only person who is (or was) in this chain is the original seller who would have had to account to the Revenue for the VAT he collected. And as he only has to keep records for 6 years, even if he was still in business he would have no record 35 years later. And even then if there were a query it would not be about your boat, but about his VAT accounts.

There is a lot of hot air talked about VAT and receipts that is fuelled by HMRC "advice", passed on by the RYA that seems to have no basis in law. VAT is a universal sales tax, not a boat tax and there is no way that it can be "attached" to any particular boat. The only situation where VAT is due on a secondhand boat sold privately is if it is imported into the EU, when the importer is liable to pay it at the first state of entry.

So relax. Despite all the doom talk there does not seem to be any record of any body being required to pay VAT on a secondhand boat bought privately in the EU - not least because there is no mechanism to allow it.

The only thing you have to worry about is good title. Pity the Part 1 has lapsed - guess that was because the then owner did not renew when the rules changed. If the paperwork includes a bill of sale for every ownership change since then no problems.

You may have a problem if you are raising finance secured on the boat because many finance houses have been taken in by the VAT hocus pocus and ask for documentation which not only is unlikely to exist but is meaningless.

Take comfort from the fact that thousands of boats (and cars, caravans, motorcycles and many other high value items) change hands between private individuals every year without any problems.

And no, HMRC cannot change "policy" only parliament can, and there is nothing in the VAT laws that permit the direct collection of VAT from individuals except for direct imports. And just to reinforce the point, it is not a tax on the underlying asset, but on the transaction.
 
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