Sunseeker Predator 58 1997

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PKM

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Hi to all and my first post on this clearly knowledgeable and helpful forum.....
I am looking to buy a Predator 58 and have a dilemma - I have been told that the 4 stroke MAN 800 diesel option is the only choice to make. However I have found a seemingly well maintained 2 Stroke Detroit Diesel 762 engined Predator. As I know very little as to what which why in relation to the pros and cons of which choice - I pose that very question. Anyone got thoughts on this ?? Thanx in anticipation PKM
 
Hello and wellcome .
The DDs I think use more fuel , - thisty - but are easier to maintain and will I suspect last longer , prob best option in an old boat 10 y or so .
Man s are more fuel efficient , but I think have higher " on costs" - things like injector need pulling every x hours -cost €€
Also nothing sounds better than DD,s in the marina - real boys toys !
Need a formulate called Latestarter 1 to come along
 
PKM - thanx Portofino for your helpful reply

Portofino said:
Hello and wellcome .
The DDs I think use more fuel , - thisty - but are easier to maintain and will I suspect last longer , prob best option in an old boat 10 y or so .
Man s are more fuel efficient , but I think have higher " on costs" - things like injector need pulling every x hours -cost €€
Also nothing sounds better than DD,s in the marina - real boys toys !
Need a formulate called Latestarter 1 to come along
Click to expand...

PKM - I used to have a Tomahawk 37 with big petrol Mercury V8s, nearly 800hp and straight thru exhausts - sounded fabulous !!
 
Hi I have a Bertram 47 with Detroit diesels 671 TI s rated at 450 hp. My boat was built in 1980 and is still going strong. The Detroits are very simple engines to maintain and well within the capability of the average man. They are totally reliable, however spares are available all over the world at reasonable prices. The only downside is the noise, but I like that and it can be controlled by fitting external deflectors. Also claims that they have heavier fuel burn rates than more modern engines have been severely challenged by enthusiasts in the US. My advice go DD and save a packet in running costs.
 
Hello welcome on the forum,
I had almost the same dilemma 2 years ago.

I have chosen for the MAN 1100HP's instead of the DD's and I am very pleased with that choise !
There is a very knowledgable forum mate on here, who thinks differently (Sorry Alf)
but he's very exprerienced with DD's.
There are very little MAN users nor fans on this forum, I'm one of the very few.

The MAN is also very easy to work on, especially these older non commonrail non electronic engines
I do basic maintenance myself
moreover, "Any" older experienced diesel engine engineers can work on a MAN,
these engines are the most straightforward designs you can think of.
Contrary to what some mates believe, the parts are not expensive.
there is a huge turnover in MAN spares, in trucks, Couches, etc...
I can send you my last invoice 2013 for the whole lot if you like. Fuel filters, prefilters, oilfilters, air filters, impellors.
my engines have 2600hrs on the counter, produce lots of smoke when cold, but only a tiny bit when hot. all normal.
engines had new injectors at 2000Hrs (previous owner) I believe (not 100% shure) this was the first injector replacement.
fuelconsumption is relatively spaking not bad, all comparisons I had consumption is not more than modern engines,
again no accurate measurements,
but for sure less then DD's !

when searching for this boat I had a look at a DD version aswell,
when I asked the Captain about the fuel consumption without hesitation he said 350l/hr at 20kn
when I asked the previous Captain of my boat, he sayd just below 300l/hr at 20kn, and actually I was always below 300l/hr

if you like to know more about my boat search and decision making proces, here is a good reading
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?260592-Princess-or-Ferretti-what-boat-would-you-choose

O yes, contrary to what mates posted above,
I don't like the noice of a DD engine in a boat, sounds like the engine is screaming,
but I really like the deep sound of my MAN's ! for sure a head turner when entering a port :-)
 
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Just seen this thread and thought I may offer some help in respect to those Detroit Diesels (DD) before I head off to Houston...

These engines will be 8V and 92 series (8V92's)... 92 indicates that each cylinder is 92 Cubic Inch in volume, whiche equates to approx 1502 Cm3 (or 1.5L per cylinder).... so will be 12 Litres + each. This means that you'll take out about 63 Hp per litre which is on the high end for the DD's. Count on a engine re-build after each 1000 - 1500 hrs (New liners, piston rings etc.)... but the good news is that you can re-build these engines at a very affordable cost. Simple engines and if you can wield a spanner, you could actually do it yourself... Parts will be "cheap" as the 71 series and the 92 series from DD share the majority of parts, which makes part production higher volume and thus cheaper....

DD's are often mis-understood in the leisure market, where speed has become a major driver and short term ownership means that stressing engines with minimum attention to them has become a norm and passing on problems to the next owner.... and evantually "Big Bill" will come knocking...

The boat witht he DD's is cheaper as it is lower HP and the engines are known to be "thirsty".... but when in tune, they are actually not much more thirsty than the equivialent 4-stroke... (understanding the engines again)..

Now, there are a couple of issues with the DD's you need to know...

1) They do not like to be run slow ... so run them warm, then push those throttles forwards for a good operating temperature.... they do not like hours at idle ... get load on them and they will sing for you...

2) Test the engines with proper load !!! ... you need to reach full WOT and make sure you test this!!!... and that temperatures are stable... at this rating, cooling system needs to be healthy ...

3) If boat is good, you could play on the "less desirable engines" and count in the fact that they will have to have a re-build at some stage... (approx £1800 per cylinder with a professional doing it)... but you will have "factory spec engines" after this... (that is £28,000 off the price of the boat !!!)....

Nothing wrong with DD's, but is less desirable in the leisure market,.... and boat is harder to sell as a result.

Cannot comment on the MAN's ... good engines I believe, but nor sure about how easy they are to rebuild, parts, reliability etc...

Good luck !!
 
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I have a problem here......Neither a Jimmy or Mangrenade fan and two engines entirely different in character.

Detroits have always fascinated me, designed in the 1930's GM developed basic engine into a rock solid multi purpose power plant. However you must remember that the intent of vessel applications was commercial, industrial and military in nature.

Just looking at a DD stripped down, the engineering, overall design, and sheer quality still befuddles me.. How could they ever have built many thousands of these things before a computer was born or a CNC machine was ever thought of ??? Detroit introduced some real clever engineering features which we would do well to re-visit, but as usual the big however.

By the time the Sunseeker installed these engines Detroit production had been building similar basic design for close to 70 years and life had moved on.

#1 Detroits are heavy for specific power produced, if they are 8V92 DDEC 760's they weigh over 1,800 kgs, just think about it, Cat C18 with very similar rating is 1,200 kgs.

#2 The Detroit Diesel is a US icon and brings out red neck outrage when criticised, however marine repower programs similar to the California Carl Moyer grant have proved that fuel economy is on average 24% worse than modern 4 stroke diesel engines of similar power output.

#3 Keeping a clean engine room with DD installed is a nightmare, 60 odd years ago we expected diesel engines to leak oil and fume, life has now moved on.

A DD in a mild state of tune is a reliable gem, however hot rod them and the crown slips, not sure if the 8V92 DDEC falls into hot rod category, Alf will certainly put me straight!

MAN, regardless of application I have no liking for them, light weight but skinny critical dimensions. MAN 2876 12.8 liter in line 6 motor in this power node has very close to the same crankshaft bearing area as Cummins 8.3 liter C Series engine, Overall MAN engines have a reputation for being 'soft'. Quite the opposite to DD.

Yer pays yer money...............
 
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A quick question - how are the marine 8V92TA rated at 762 hp as the Detroit web site rates them around 460hp ??

Thanx in anticipation - regards

PKM
 
I can only add this as a DD671 owner. When paired with Alison hydraulic gear boxes they provide the most responsive drive train I have ever encountered. Easy to service, easier to understand. A pleasure to drive.

Our local Engineer was asked to switch the DDs on a local ferry boat to Man's to improve fuel economy. The boat was subsequently out of service on a regular basis for a whole range of ancillary issues. The owner then decided to buy and reinstall rebuilt DD's He must be happy because I haven't seen it out of action since.

It is true that DD's cannot match the performance of current engine technology, but on an older boat I wouldn't change.
 
Bertramdriver said:
Our local Engineer was asked to switch the DDs on a local ferry boat to Man's to improve fuel economy. The boat was subsequently out of service on a regular basis for a whole range of ancillary issues. The owner then decided to buy and reinstall rebuilt DD's He must be happy because I haven't seen it out of action since.
Click to expand...

Not sure where 'local' is, however once original DD's have been taken out of a vessel in commercial operation IMO legislation kicks in. It applies retroactively to new engines greater than 130 kW installed on vessels constructed on or after January 1, 2000, or which undergo a major conversion after that date. No Detroit two stroke models as far as I am aware come close to meeting 1997 Protocol NOx standards. Adopted World wide by 2005.
 
Bertramdriver said:
Greece where IMO legislation is aspirational and optional
Click to expand...

:D

they probably haven't figured out what all these protocols mean and they're still too busy charging ppl on their cars and taxing everything that moves (or is stationary...) No doubt they'll get there eventually :(
My eurowhatever BMW X3 petrol (2006 model) road tax is 660euro pa. The next euro incarnation cars pay a third of that (iirc) and my mates Lexus RX400 massive hybrid jeep pays fck all (being a hybrid my 4rse...)

V.
 
Maybe the answer is to go back to pedal power, or poke your legs through the floor and scoot. No that's silly, they'll charge you tax on shoe leather. Whatever social experiment the Eurocrats are trying on Greece, on the ground it's turning into something unpleasant. When will they wake up and bale out of the Euro?
 
PKM said:
A quick question - how are the marine 8V92TA rated at 762 hp as the Detroit web site rates them around 460hp ??

Thanx in anticipation - regards

PKM
Click to expand...

Hi you really need Alf for a definitive answer, but what I do know I'd that the DD's are rated at different HP dependent upon application and operating revs. Commercial operators rate the 671 at 350 hp but recommend maximum revs at 1800. Bertram rated mine at 450 at 2500 rpm. Same engine. So just reading a few figures from a website can be confusing. All I can say is if they're fitted, they're big enough.
 
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