sunseeker hit by crunch...

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gimmesunshine

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Following sealine and fairline, sad to hear that sunseeker are struggling big time, apparently everthing sub 70ft isnt selling at all, so they are bringing forward new 130+ designs as thats where sales currently are, so hopefully they can capture this market and make the most of the attractive exchange rates.
All this doom and gloom is getting a bit tiresome but it is affecting lots of small associated business's around poole.
Maybe its the time to bag a bargain as apparently a few buyers have pulled out after paying deposits...
 
I was talking to a guy in a bar in Gib on Saturday...a bit Hazy but he was worried about his long term income and cancelled a Portofino 47...losing 10%! I thought he needed 20% deposit but he ordered at SIBs with only 10% on his Credit Card (wow what a limit). Turned out he was a property speculator...and a Man United fan so I did not have that much sympathy! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

No idea if he was just spouting off or genuine though...and I was a little drunk!

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I bet he is not the only one either...
 
Yes indeed. Sunseeker have been out of the news re low sales and redundancies, and folks (incl on here) have said they are performing ok unlike the rest of the big 4, whereas of course lots of folks know they have the same probs as the others only they are slower in saying so and taking the medecine. Not criticising that strategy, just describing it. Good luck to them

The real struggler is going to be Ferretti. A billion euros of LBO debt is on a different scale from the UK big4's relatively minor problems. It will be very interesting to see how the Ferretti thing goes in the next couple of months, but if I were buying a new boat on 10%/20% deposit right now it wouldn't be a Ferretti.

Lots of buyers have walked away from deposits among all the big boatbuilders. This is a slump not a recession.
 
You don't need a grapevine for that one. Bav wasn't looking a great investment even before the Lehmans weekend in September 2008. It's looking much worse now. Very roughly, iirc, it has €800m of LBO debt. I can't beleive there is any equity left in that deal at all now.

I advised potential buyers of it (clients of mine) that it was way overpriced, but that was hardly rocket science. Fortunatley they agreed and didn't buy it. Bain just made bad mistake there (Flip side is that Hermann family's timing in selling out was perfect...)

These businesses rarely just close up though, like Woolworths. Remeber, at the operating level they trade profitably. They just dont make enuf cash to service the bank debt. More likely they get taken by the banks so the equity investors lose everything, then there is a sell off of the profitable underlying trading business so the banks get back 50c on the € or whatever, and the business itself survives.
 
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Following sealine and fairline, sad to hear that sunseeker are struggling big time. Maybe its the time to bag a bargain as apparently a few buyers have pulled out after paying deposits...

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Unlike the well connected jfm I'm not in the loop on how the UK 4 are doing... so as a matter of interest where does this view come from - sales people, local news, industry gossip?

Sunseeker sales know we are interested in a "sub-70ft" sportsboat, and yet no-one has rung us up to say "boy is your luck in, not only did we take very few orders, those we did take have been cancelled, so would you like to come down and choose you new boat?" /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

To add to that I spoke to the MD of one of the UK's bigger brokers today, who said "You are the first native english speaking customer I've talked to in a while, it is all euro buyers..."
 
it comes from affected business's who supply and service them for many years, they are having to make serious cut backs, luckiliy they havent got all their eggs in one basket
 
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they are bringing forward new 130+ designs as thats where sales currently are

[/ QUOTE ]Mmmm.... as if in that segment of the market there wouldn't be builders with a much better brand and reputation.
Just two words pop to my mind: good luck.
 
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These businesses rarely just close up though, like Woolworths. Remeber, at the operating level they trade profitably. They just dont make enuf cash to service the bank debt.

[/ QUOTE ]I really don't know, J. That's indeed the typical situation, but I'm afraid this time it might - and for some surely will - be radically different.
A quickly disappearing market can shrink the cash flow well below what's necessary to pay employees and suppliers, let alone servicing the debt.
And if so, WNS? Maybe we could suggest this to TJ for his next edition....
 
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.... as if in that segment of the market there wouldn't be builders with a much better brand and reputation.

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.. and 30-50% higher prices? I know a lot of buyers in this segment are not so price sensitive, but Sunseeker is still a well known and respected brand, so for that saving some buyers for sure will look at what they have to offer.
 
Well known and respected brand in 130'+ segment? In their dreams, maybe.

PS: I'm also skeptic about the price difference anyway, for comparably specced boats.
I mean, if the owner wants a Carrara marble table in his saloon, S/Seeker is bound to charge him with the same price as Baglietto, Palmer Johnson, or whatever, innit? Same goes for a couple of 2700hp MTU engines, and so forth...
 
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More likely they get taken by the banks so the equity investors lose everything, then there is a sell off of the profitable underlying trading business so the banks get back 50c on the € or whatever, and the business itself survives.

[/ QUOTE ]

The practise of flipping businesses into administration and the better parts out again in a pre-arranged deal seems to becoming more common, to the cost of existing shareholders and creditors. It seems a unattractive & dubious practise to me.
 
Re: sunseeker hit by crunch... possible new WNS question

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[ QUOTE ]
These businesses rarely just close up though, like Woolworths. Remeber, at the operating level they trade profitably. They just dont make enuf cash to service the bank debt.

[/ QUOTE ]I really don't know, J. That's indeed the typical situation, but I'm afraid this time it might - and for some surely will - be radically different.
A quickly disappearing market can shrink the cash flow well below what's necessary to pay employees and suppliers, let alone servicing the debt.
And if so, WNS? Maybe we could suggest this to TJ for his next edition....

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so.......it sounds far too plausable!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: sunseeker hit by crunch... possible new WNS question

everyone is feeling this right now who says the 80 feet plus is not suffering lives on another planet, with plenty of cancelled or delayed orders in that size less in numbers in the small ones, but much more value
the problem really is that in the last 4 years buisness was booming and everyone tripled or double his production
if Ferretti produced 50 bpy as it used in 2000 they want have much problems really
recently they where building 120 bpy and that Ferretti alone which exludes Pershing, Mochi, and the rest

the only company I know performing well is Baglietto but then I do not have access to the rest
Azimut Benetti Group is doing so and so, and may be of the big builders they are performing the best

if they want to get the goods out any boat builder only thing to do is start to build more to order, and put the 2007 sales forecasts down the bin
Fline might have worked this out well as the rumour is that they will produce only 150 boats this year from what was 300 bpy a few ago, but always decreasing in the last years

but before busting on the Italian builders some of them have other related cash revenue as servicing yards Ferretti owns a few, as well as AZ-Ben so if this really ends as a survivors game it can go how much your buisness is diversified for its cash flow
 
I didn't say in the 130'+ market. My point was they are a builder established and respected up to 100', now with some experience building up to 120', so it's less of a risk for a buyer who's looking for a 130' boat than a company who doesn't have this experience at all. If the price is also very competitive, some buyers will consider it a modest risk of being a guinea pig, in exchange for the saving. Others will stick with brands more established at the larger size, but they'll probably pay more.

As it happens, I wouldn't buy one if I had all the money in the world, cos I don't like the styling on the big SS's, but that's just personal opinion, and others may like them.
 
[quoteThe practise of flipping businesses into administration and the better parts out again in a pre-arranged deal seems to becoming more common, to the cost of existing shareholders and creditors. It seems a unattractive & dubious practise to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah but these aren't those flips Captain. The management always own significant equity (in all the UK big4 except Sealine, and in Ferretti bigtime, to name but a few, also Oyster, Canados, Van Lent and so on) so flipping to short-change the shareholders isn't something the management would do.
 
Re: sunseeker hit by crunch... possible new WNS question

Your reports of Fairline's contraction (cutting down to 150 bpy)overstate the position PY. You'd be amazed at what they've sold (to end customers, not dealers) since Lehmans weekend in September, and at LIBS. But yes all the Uk builders are bound to be cutting back to 2/3 of previous levels, or so, and Sealine more.

Of course if the recession gets worse you could turn out to be correct at 50% :-/

I think you're missing the point on Ferretti though. It's not that they increased production, and they aint gonna be helped by having a few servicing yards. Their problem is €1bn of LBO debt borrowed at the height of the boom in 2007, and the fact that there are reduced sales as you say even in the 80foot + segment. And they dont have any currency FX rate help as the UK builders do
 
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