Sunsail Yacht ownership (or similar) Or chartering your own?

[Mings74]

Hi all,
Anyone have any experience of owning a yacht with Sunsail or similar?. How do the figures add up?, does the yacht come close to paying for itself?. I see they will finance up 80%.
Or how about chartering your own yacht?, by the time you have coded it etc is it worth it?. Cheers Ming

 

[david36]

I looked at this and the Moorings version some years ago. Things may have changed since then.The conclusion then was that assuming you were not a US taxpayer, if you were going to take up all the cheap sailing each year then it was probably made financial sense, provided that you were careful about what sort of boat you "bought" ie what residual value you would get for the boat if you sold it at the end. If you were not going to take up all the sailing then it was cheaper and more flexible to forget this sort of deal and charter on the open market. There was also an issue of were you happy to have a fairly minimalist level of kit on board what you sailed compared to the sort of level you would get from a private owner who chartered through someone like Top Yacht in Turkey. I know one couple who have been very happy with this scheme with Sunsail and have bought a number of yachts over the years. They have had some fantastic sailing in exotic places. I also have heard a small number of people who said that on occasions they felt like the poor relations in dealing with Sunsail when trying to organise their "cheap" weeks". In the end I decided not to go down this road and have had no regrets.
Fair winds.

 

[MoodySabre]

I think the deal is slightly different now but some friends did a Sunsail (Vounaki) deal of few years ago, got lots of cheap/free sailing in the meantime and when they got the boat back after 4 years they said it was in excellent condition, hardly any scuffs, fully serviced, brand new sails. They sold 3 shares in it and reckon they have got their quarter share for free.

 

[Tranona]

We bought a Bavaria 37 through Kiriacoulis in 2001 and had it out on charter for 7 years. We paid 48% of the capital cost so our outlay was about £36k. We had at least one holiday a year, sometimes 2. The interest we paid on the money we borrowed was equivalent to just over one weeks normal charter rate, so one could argue that it paid for itself. There were no other costs for 6 years, but for the extra year we paid all the costs and made a small profit.

We took the boat over last year in excellent condition, partly I think because we used it every year and made sure it was looked after. we had new sails supplied after 4 years and all the equipment was very serviecable. We had to pay VAT when it came off the Greek charter register so our overall cost came to about £44k for a fully equipped boat. We have spent about £3k on upgrading including re-hupolstery in the saloon.

Overall we are very happy with the deal. Similar deals are still available, as are full purchase with annual repayments. They are much more flexible than when we bought ours with various terms. However, boat size has increased and there are few under 40ft. The partial purchase schemes are also more expensive at around 55% cost.

Although we have been very pleased with our purchase, you have to be clear about what you want to get out of it. They are best if you want to make full use of your "free" sailing time, particularly if you want to try different locations. Residual values can be variable depending on the model chosen, the local market each year and the location. Some operators will do a deal if you want to buy a new boat on a similar scheme. The selling of shares into a syndicate has also been popular.

The upside is that we would never have been able to afford to buy and run such a boat in the UK, and we have had more than enough fun out of it to justify the commitment. This is our "retirement" project and the plan is to come back through the Canal du Midi in a couple of year's time use the boat here for a season or 2 and sell it. We should be able to get back at least our capital outlay.

 

[Alfie168]

I think I would want to do some 'worst case scenario' financial projections in the light of the credit crunch and general down turn in economies world wide. What happens if your boat only gets booked for a 1/3 of the time you had anticipated for example ? I have to do these sums as I have a holiday cottage, and with two poor summers the bookings have been less than we might have expected.

Its a brilliant idea though. I am cautious as I lost a $500Can deposit with a company that did similar things with motor homes in Canada. They went bust whilst I was on the plane back to the UK. I was only the hirer losing my deposit, but I spoke to one or two of the motorhome owners who were out of pocket to the tune of $6000 or more income, and suddenly had to start funding the finance deal that had enabled them to afford the thing in the first place. (TBBS Motorhomes)

Frankly I'd love to do something similar if I had the time and the readies to make proper use of the boat. Pretty well all the feedback suggests that Sunsail take care of the boats well. Just do your homework

Tim

 

[Tranona]

Depends on the contract. In my case I had no income or cost and all the risk was with the management company. The risk was that the company would remain solvent long enough to fulfil the final part of the contract and deliver the boat to me. Throughout the charter contract it was registered in their name to comply with Greek law and for the first three years their bank had a charge registered against the boat. When this was discharged then our interest was registered. In the event there were no problems.

In most schemes the payments are not directly linked to the income on "your" boat, so the risk is more general to the operator rather than the individual boat. This is not the case with some operators who have individual contracts with owners. The big operators such as Sunsail, Moorings and Kiriacoulis use this method to finance their fleets as they would not be able to continually renew their fleets within their own resources.

As a bit of a history lesson, the schemes originated through a French government scheme that allowed French citizens to write the whole cost of a charter boat against tax in one year - provided of course that the boat was made in France. Ever wondered why the market is dominated by Beneteau and Jeanneau? The first Sunsail boat we chartered in Turkey belonged to a Frenchman, was registered in Marseilles, and he probably never saw the boat - just an investment. Those days have gone now, but here are still breaks available to French boat buyers through avoidance of VAT on finance schemes.

 

[neil1967]

We looked at Sunsail and decided it wasn't for us - whilst it is very flexible (you can use your 'free' weeks anywhere on a sunsail yacht), you are not necessarily guarenteed access to your yacht, and you have to get a Sunsail spec yacht. Instead we have bought outright in Turkey, and then pay a firm to charter our yacht out on our behalf. The charter firm arranged the purchase of the yacht, delivery to Turkey and fitting out for charter use. We pay a fixed fee for licences, insurance, mooring etc, and a fixed percentage of charter income which covers advertising, cleaning, maintenance etc. We can use the yacht as much as we like, but clearly that could impact our income - we intend using her 3 weeks a year and keeping her in charter for around 5 years. On top of the much reduced cost of holidays (approx £4000 per annum saving), I estimate we should make around 20% overall profit over 5 years - depending of course on the resale value of the yacht when we sell her - if we sell her! VAT will be payable if we import her into the EU, but only on her value at the time. We had previously chartered yachts from the firm we are using, and had been very impressed with the quality and standard of maintenance. Too early yet to say how successful this will be - this is our first season! Feel free to send me a PM if you want more details.

 

[Sailfree]

I have bought 3 new boats for charter in the UK but thanks to Gordon Brown you can now forget it.

Realistically you can recoup some of your running costs but not depreciation. I know many yacht owners that started about the same time but we have all had an IR enquiry.

I insured against an IR investigation so that all your costs are covered and you can properly defend yourself hence the IR now only carry out limited enquiries for which you cover the accountants/legal costs.

If you loved sailing and accept some costs it used to be worth while as you could offset losses (including depreciation) against other income but no longer.

I will not buy another yacht in the UK but will consider one say in Croatia but I need to do more investigation before making a decision.

Currently you cannot justify buying and chartering in the UK unless its emotion ruling over logic.

Thanks Gordon Brown thats another industry you will slowly strangle to death as anyone with any financial sense will buy a boat for charter in any other country except the UK!

PS I was lucky the IR settled for £10k but now increased losses each year that I effectively fund!

Cannot advise on sunsail deal but previous threads indicated the consensus view - against it.

 

[Tranona]

Agree about the UK. We looked at this when our charter contract came up. Costs here are simply too high. Not helped by today's experience - mid summer and 30 knots+ of wind and rain. At least in Corfu when we get there in two weeks time it will be 27c+!

I have looked at ex charter boats here and they seem to get far more of a hammering than boats in the Med. And I object to paying upwards of £8k for a marina berth, when the boat, if it is earning its keep is away for a third of the time!

As I said in my earlier post, it depends on what you want to get out of the deal. One certain thing is that you have to accept that other people are using your boat and gear. On the other hand in our experience your own use can be hassle free and very economic. The big unknown is what to do with the boat when the contract is up.

As to buying a boat outright on an individual contract, that has its attractions with the right company. However the capital outlay is substantially higher, but I think if I had the money I would be tempted.