Sunken yacht in Solent

[Chiara’s slave]

I think there is an interesting point here (for pedants at least) that it doesn’t say “every vessel at all times when underway”. There is a practical reality than small boats are left on moorings and at anchor with nobody on board, and few people maintain an overnight anchor watch on leisure craft (except is worried about dragging). The report on the collision at anchor off the E of England will be interesting MAIB report because I expect it will imply that the anchored ship should have had a lookout. I’m not sure if Little Tern is really arguing that an anchored or moored yacht should never be left unattended… perhaps he owns a marina!!

We’re apparently supposed to keep a lookout when moored in a marina too Do cameras count? And police, try going within 50 metres of one of our carriers in Portsmouth, you’ll soon find out that they do exist. But for the hard of understanding, I am not sincerely expecting a knock on the hatch for failing to keep an anchor watch, I’m pretty sure that is not the intention of the rule. Nor really if I were to forget my ball.

 

[awol]

Prey what are "maritime police" ? Up here if you see a Police vessel you must be within sight of a nuclear submarine or base - and they tend to be quite persuasive.
Elsewhere, as far as I am aware, the don't exist.

When I was in Mallaig once the RNLI lifeboat had to take the local PCs to deal with a domestic incident, at a community unable to be reached by road!

Have you not been watching "Annika" the BBC's documentary on the "Marine Murder Team" domiciled in the Beacon Arts Centre in Greenock. The eponymous heroine uses a police launch to commute from Loch Lomond to East India Harbour. I feel so much safer to know they are around!

 

[ylop]

Yes, I asked the same question, and no one can answer it. Still hopeful that someone can show reason why a boat moored to, for example, a concrete block, is safe from the danger of collision, and needs no ball or light, while one with an anchor on the seabed, needs both. I am familiar with lots of places where moored and anchored boats lie in close proximity. Earnest searching after truth.

Well a number of answers were given but you may not have liked them. I think from a similar discussion about anchor lights on moorings the conclusion may actually be that on a strict interpretation of the ColRegs a vessel on a mooring should display an anchor ball. The problem is the ColRegs don’t define at anchor!

There could be an argument that knowing (via a ball) if a vessel is moored or anchored is useful as they have rather different swing radius. Although I think that’s retrofitting a reason rather than applying the col regs.

It’s no different to people who don’t use a ball at anchor making their own interpretation - probably a lot of it based on “nobody else does”.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Interesting discussion.

If you are at anchor or on a mooring and no one i abord to keep a lookout as required that vessel is not under command so if over 12 meters like mine should have 2 anchor balls on display to comply with col regs.

My vessel is over 12 meters and when moored with no one on board tied up to a jetty the harbour authority state I should display an anchor ball, but I think as no one is onboard so not under command I interoperate I should display 2 anchor ballso

 

[ylop]

The relevance is the number of people upthread who were blowing gaskets

I don’t think anyone on this thread was blowing gaskets! If anyone was actually getting annoyed it was the “non-ball users”, a few of whom seemed to scoff at the very notion.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Interesting discussion.

If you are at anchor or on a mooring and no one i abord to keep a lookout as required that vessel is not under command so if over 12 meters like mine should have 2 anchor balls on display to comply with col regs.

My vessel is over 12 meters and when moored with no one on board tied up to a jetty the harbour authority state I should display an anchor ball, but I think as no one is onboard so not under command I interoperate I should display 2 anchor ballso

I’ve observed a number of boats in the Solent who should display 2 black balls at all times

 

[Mark-1]

(for pedants at least)

I love a pedantic debate as much as the next man but this is not a pedantic point. "At all times" imposes a far broader obligation than “when underway.” The distinction really matters in real-world navigation.

I’m not sure if Little Tern is really arguing that an anchored or moored yacht should never be left unattended…

That is what the rule says. ...I'll go further, I bet you can't find any case law that says otherwise because for that to exist there would need to have been a collision partially caused by a lack of an anchor watch and a Judge/Jury would have had to have had to have said "Yeah, it's fine to do that.".

 

[capnsensible]

I have frequently left my boat moored with two anchors, for periods of four weeks, in a system known as a Bahamian Moor. So, in your opinion, should it have an anchor ball, and why?

Of course. Your vessel is anchored.

 

[capnsensible]

Wow. I had formed the impression that you rated yourself as some sort of guru on colregs. But you think they apply to a boat on hardstanding? What about the dinghy in my back garden? Do you think that should be displaying lights and shapes?

I have shown you where in the rules that an anchor watch is mandatory. It is rule 5. That rule applies to all vessels at all times.

It doesn't. Read it.

 

[Little Tern]

It doesn't. Read it.

I read it. Did you?

Can you show me where in Rule 5 it says that the rule only applies to vessels that are underway?

Or where, elsewhere in colregs, it says that Rule 5 only applies to vessels that are underway?

 

[capnsensible]

I read it. Did you?

Can you show me where in Rule 5 it says that the rule only applies to vessels that are underway?

Or where, elsewhere in colregs, it says that Rule 5 only applies to vessels that are underway?

I asked you to show me where in the rules an anchor watch is mandatory. I have given you examples of 'at all times' that are clearly nonsense.

You have not answered my question at all.

 

[dunedin]

I asked you to show me where in the rules an anchor watch is mandatory. I have given you examples of 'at all times' that are clearly nonsense.

You have not answered my question at all.

OK so now what the rules actually say doesn’t matter, if you believe what it says is “clearly nonsense”.

 

[Mark-1]

Interesting discussion.

If you are at anchor or on a mooring and no one i abord to keep a lookout as required that vessel is not under command so if over 12 meters like mine should have 2 anchor balls on display to comply with col regs.

No because you have to be NUC due to "exceptional circumstances".

 

[capnsensible]

OK so now what the rules actually say doesn’t matter, if you believe what it says is “clearly nonsense”.

Nice try gramps.

Let us all know how you arrange your watchkeeping in a marina.

 

[Little Tern]

I asked you to show me where in the rules an anchor watch is mandatory. I have given you examples of 'at all times' that are clearly nonsense.

You have not answered my question at all.

I have shown you where in the rules that an anchor watch is mandatory. It's in Rule 5:

"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision."

You say you've given me examples of 'at all times' that are clearly nonsense. One of those is a boat on hardstanding. That is just your failure to understand the application of colregs. Rule 1(a): "These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.". Colregs don't apply on hardstanding.

But yes, the requirement to keep a lookout applies when at anchor, and when alongside at harbour. Busy merchant ships manage it; mainly because it's the law. Isn't it amazing how busy professional vessels find time to comply with colregs?

Does it apply on a mooring? Yes, according to the colregs, it does. Is that a nonsense? In your view, yes. In the view of a larger cargo vessel, maybe not. But it is in the regs. Feel free to ignore it though if you don't like the rule. Some might say "Not being bothered to comply with a simple rule is sheer laziness. So many people think they just don't have to bother with aspects of IRPCS as though they are somehow far too self important." but I prefer no to ascribe adverse motives and personal characteristics to others.

 

[capnsensible]

No because you have to be NUC due to "exceptional circumstances".

Blimey. You understand the NUC rule. Yay.

 

[rogerthebodger]

No because you have to be NUC due to "exceptional circumstances".

Yes but what are exceptional circumstances its like all legal requirements they must be defined and properly understood

 

[capnsensible]

I have shown you where in the rules that an anchor watch is mandatory. It's in Rule 5:

"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision."

You say you've given me examples of 'at all times' that are clearly nonsense. One of those is a boat on hardstanding. That is just your failure to understand the application of colregs. Rule 1(a): "These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.". Colregs don't apply on hardstanding.

But yes, the requirement to keep a lookout applies when at anchor, and when alongside at harbour. Busy merchant ships manage it; mainly because it's the law. Isn't it amazing how busy professional vessels find time to comply with colregs?

Does it apply on a mooring? Yes, according to the colregs, it does. Is that a nonsense? In your view, yes. In the view of a larger cargo vessel, maybe not. But it is in the regs. Feel free to ignore it though if you don't like the rule. Some might say "Not being bothered to comply with a simple rule is sheer laziness. So many people think they just don't have to bother with aspects of IRPCS as though they are somehow far too self important." but I prefer no to ascribe adverse motives and personal characteristics to others.

You are making the same points that I've made on here dozens of times. But you still haven't demonstrated an anchor watch is mandatory.

 

[Little Tern]

What part of "every vessel at all times" don't you understand?

 

[capnsensible]

Yes but what are exceptional circumstances its like all legal requirements they must be defined and properly understood

An event has taken place that makes the vessel unable to comply with the steering and sailing rules.

You will typically see this on a vessel that has a steering gear failure or propulsion failure.