Sunken yacht in Solent

[NormanS]

A couple of questions for the experts:
1. What is the prescribed size for an anchor ball?
2. In the real world, why do the regs say that an anchored boat needs a ball, but the moored boat beside it, doesn't?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

This is definitely more boring than anchor threads.

 

[Bouba]

A couple of questions for the experts:
1. What is the prescribed size for an anchor ball?
2. In the real world, why do the regs say that an anchored boat needs a ball, but the moored boat beside it, doesn't?

Makes you wonder if it originally was to attract you to a safe anchorage....rather than avoid

 

[NorthUp]

A mooring is frequently identified on a chart?

 

[john_morris_uk]

A couple of questions for the experts:
1. What is the prescribed size for an anchor ball?
2. In the real world, why do the regs say that an anchored boat needs a ball, but the moored boat beside it, doesn't?

1. From IRPCS

Annex 1

6. Shapes​

(a) Shapes shall be black and of the following sizes:
(i) a ball shall have a diameter of not less than 0.6 metre;
(ii) a cone shall have a base diameter of not less than 0.6 metre and a height equal to its diameter;
(iii) a cylinder shall have a diameter of at least 0.6 metre and a height of twice its diameter
(iv) a diamond shape shall consist of two cones as defined in (ii) above having a common base.
(b) The vertical distance between shapes shall be at least 1.5 metres.
(c) In a vessel of less than 20 metres in length shapes of lesser dimensions but commensurate with the size of the vessel may be used and the distance apart may be correspondingly reduced.

But you’ve read this before if you go to sea on a boat?

2. Because moorings are known and therefore predictable. But you can anchor almost anywhere and therefore need to show a day shape and the correct lights after dark.

 

[rogerthebodger]

A couple of questions for the experts:
1. What is the prescribed size for an anchor ball?
2. In the real world, why do the regs say that an anchored boat needs a ball, but the moored boat beside it, doesn't?

My understanding re size is 300mm dis for small vessels and 600mm dis for ships which seems small to me.

Our requirement is 400 mm dia for small vessels and 600 mm dia for ships.

There is no enforcement for anchor balls and motoring cones, but we are all required to have on board 2 anchor balls and 1 motoring cone

 

[Chiara’s slave]

My understanding re size is 300mm dis for small vessels and 600mm dis for ships which seems small to me.

Our requirement is 400 mm dia for small vessels and 600 mm dia for ships.

There is no enforcement for anchor balls and motoring cones, but we are all required to have on board 2 anchor balls and 1 motoring cone

Just in case you’re not under command at some time?

 

[dunedin]

A couple of questions for the experts:
1. …
2. In the real world, why do the regs say that an anchored boat needs a ball, but the moored boat beside it, doesn't?

Do they?
There was some debate on here recently on whether there was a formal definition of anchored vs mooring (ie on a mooring buoy) and seemed to conclude that there was no formal differentiation. Not got the formal wording to hand so perhaps the forum lawyers can confirm.

Also what is the definition of “motor sailing”? Sailing with engine running but not in gear is general not considered as motoring, but still a sailing vessel. So would by the same logic motoring with a sail set but not filling be considered to be motoring or motor sailing (eg a trawler or motor yacht with mizzen set, or Solent rig)?

PS. athe motoring cone seems to be the most useless device as if truly motor sailing (ie using both sails and engine) a motoring cone is generally invisible for 180 degrees due to being hidden behind the genoa.

 

[Mark-1]

Do they?
There was some debate on here recently on whether there was a formal definition of anchored vs mooring (ie on a mooring buoy) and seemed to conclude that there was no formal differentiation. Not got the formal wording to hand so perhaps the forum lawyers can confirm.

Also what is the definition of “motor sailing”? Sailing with engine running but not in gear is general not considered as motoring, but still a sailing vessel. So would by the same logic motoring with a sail set but not filling be considered to be motoring or motor sailing (eg a trawler or motor yacht with mizzen set, or Solent rig)?

PS. athe motoring cone seems to be the most useless device as if truly motor sailing (ie using both sails and engine) a motoring cone is generally invisible for 180 degrees due to being hidden behind the genoa.

That's why I love this forum. Plenty to consult Cockcroft about tonight.

 

[NormanS]

Do they?
There was some debate on here recently on whether there was a formal definition of anchored vs mooring (ie on a mooring buoy) and seemed to conclude that there was no formal differentiation. Not got the formal wording to hand so perhaps the forum lawyers can confirm.

Also what is the definition of “motor sailing”? Sailing with engine running but not in gear is general not considered as motoring, but still a sailing vessel. So would by the same logic motoring with a sail set but not filling be considered to be motoring or motor sailing (eg a trawler or motor yacht with mizzen set, or Solent rig)?

PS. athe motoring cone seems to be the most useless device as if truly motor sailing (ie using both sails and engine) a motoring cone is generally invisible for 180 degrees due to being hidden behind the genoa.

If you take the case, for example, Loch Aline, with which I know you are familiar. There are moorings all up and down both sides of the Loch. Often there are anchored boats scattered around among the moorings. I've always wondered about the logic which determines that boats at anchor are particularly vulnerable to be collided with, and therefore have to be "protected" by a black ball, while the neighbouring moored boat is apparently invulnerable, and isn't expected to show anything.

 

[NormanS]

1. From IRPCS

Annex 1

6. Shapes​

(a) Shapes shall be black and of the following sizes:
(i) a ball shall have a diameter of not less than 0.6 metre;
(ii) a cone shall have a base diameter of not less than 0.6 metre and a height equal to its diameter;
(iii) a cylinder shall have a diameter of at least 0.6 metre and a height of twice its diameter
(iv) a diamond shape shall consist of two cones as defined in (ii) above having a common base.
(b) The vertical distance between shapes shall be at least 1.5 metres.
(c) In a vessel of less than 20 metres in length shapes of lesser dimensions but commensurate with the size of the vessel may be used and the distance apart may be correspondingly reduced.

But you’ve read this before if you go to sea on a boat?

2. Because moorings are known and therefore predictable. But you can anchor almost anywhere and therefore need to show a day shape and the correct lights after dark.

So lesser undefined sizes are acceptable.

 

[LittleSister]

I agree, although I’ve not devised a mechanism to deploy one (or retract it) from the cockpit which means that it can be more risky than an anchor ball where you are already in the right place and usually relatively calm.

I have occasionally mused on the potential for some quicker and more convenient device for deploying a motoring cone or anchor ball.

My 'ultimate day-shape deployer gadget thingy' (TM )would also position the motoring cone ahead of the genoa which typically renders it invisible from most directions. I fancied a pole clipped to and projecting above a forward leaning stantion of my pulpit (and removable so I didn't have to pay mooring fees for it), so the day shape would be above and forward of the boat's bow.

The day shapes themselves might be, I've wondered, inflatable; or canvas which is held near flat at rest by internal elastic, but can be opened out to its proper shape by means of a cord pulling it open; or could a hologram work? Further research and contemplation will be undertaken before the Mark 1 goes into production.

 

[LittleSister]

Also what is the definition of “motor sailing”? Sailing with engine running but not in gear is general not considered as motoring, but still a sailing vessel. So would by the same logic motoring with a sail set but not filling be considered to be motoring or motor sailing (eg a trawler or motor yacht with mizzen set, or Solent rig)?

It's very simple.

If a vessel is being propelled wholly or partly by an engine, it is a vessel under power. Whether it has sails set or drawing is irrelevant to that definition (but having them set gives rise to the need to display a motoring cone by day).

If a vessel is being propelled only by sails, it is a vessel under sail, regardless of whether its engine if out of gear is running,

 

[newtothis]

I have occasionally mused on the potential for some quicker and more convenient device for deploying a motoring cone or anchor ball.

My 'ultimate day-shape deployer gadget thingy' (TM )would also position the motoring cone ahead of the genoa which typically renders it invisible from most directions. I fancied a pole clipped to and projecting above a forward leaning stantion of my pulpit (and removable so I didn't have to pay mooring fees for it), so the day shape would be above and forward of the boat's bow.

The day shapes themselves might be, I've wondered, inflatable; or canvas which is held near flat at rest but can be opened out to its proper shape by means of a cord pulling it open; or could a hologram work? Further research and contemplation will be undertaken before the Mark 1 goes into production.

Needs a wifi link to your AIS so that deployment automatically identifies your vessel as 'sailing vessel under motor power'. A few more tweaks and it could automatically deploy when it recognises the engine is on while the sails are still up. Remember, the simpler the problem, the more complex the solution needs to be if you're going to make serious money from it.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I was sailing along the African coast and received an AIS signal stating the vessel was underway. When we got closer the vessel turned out to be a gas production platform/ How it could be: underway I don't know being fixed to the seabed

 

[dunedin]

It's very simple.

If a vessel is being propelled wholly or partly by an engine, it is a vessel under power. Whether it has sails set or drawing is irrelevant to that definition (but having them set gives rise to the need to display a motoring cone by day).

If a vessel is being propelled only by sails, it is a vessel under sail, regardless of whether its engine if out of gear is running,

But is that the actual wording of the rules?
As noted,, I don’t have to hand but all versions online I have found do not refer to sails “set” or even “hoisted”. Some refer to a “sailing vessel under power” - which would mean that a motoring cone should be hoisted whenever that TYPE of vessel is under power, irrespective of whether any sails hoisted (which makes some sense in AIS Class B world, when the vessel type cannot be updated)

 

[dunedin]

If you take the case, for example, Loch Aline, with which I know you are familiar. There are moorings all up and down both sides of the Loch. Often there are anchored boats scattered around among the moorings. I've always wondered about the logic which determines that boats at anchor are particularly vulnerable to be collided with, and therefore have to be "protected" by a black ball, while the neighbouring moored boat is apparently invulnerable, and isn't expected to show anything.

I agree. And not even sure there is a technical / definition difference.

PS Unlike anchor balls in many situations, I believe that anchor lights are extremely important. As well as an “official” anchor light we have a solar lamp on the push pit, which lights up automatically each night from April to October- hence some light at night even if on mooring (and even if skipper forgets to press the anchor light are switch as evening comes on)

 

[newtothis]

But is that the actual wording of the rules?
As noted,, I don’t have to hand but all versions online I have found do not refer to sails “set” or even “hoisted”. Some refer to a “sailing vessel under power” - which would mean that a motoring cone should be hoisted whenever that TYPE of vessel is under power, irrespective of whether any sails hoisted (which makes some sense in AIS Class B world, when the vessel type cannot be updated)

Rule 25 (e): A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled bymachinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape,apex downwards.

 

[NormanS]

I agree. And not even sure there is a technical / definition difference.

PS Unlike anchor balls in many situations, I believe that anchor lights are extremely important. As well as an “official” anchor light we have a solar lamp on the push pit, which lights up automatically each night from April to October- hence some light at night even if on mooring (and even if skipper forgets to press the anchor light are switch as evening comes on)

Agreed. There is very often justification for an anchor light, and I often use one (not at the masthead). I'm quite sure that when the col regs came out, reg anchor balls, those drafting them hadn't thought of the huge numbers of small boats that there are nowadays. But, if people are happier to use them, that's fine by me. I'm not one of your five.

 

[LittleSister]

But is that the actual wording of the rules?
As noted,, I don’t have to hand but all versions online I have found do not refer to sails “set” or even “hoisted”. Some refer to a “sailing vessel under power” - which would mean that a motoring cone should be hoisted whenever that TYPE of vessel is under power, irrespective of whether any sails hoisted (which makes some sense in AIS Class B world, when the vessel type cannot be updated)

No, 'vessel under power' is not about a type of vessel, it's about how it is being propelled.


From the ColRegs:

RULE 3: GENERAL DEFINITIONS
. . .
(b) The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

RULE 25: SAILING VESSELS UNDERWAY AND VESSELS UNDER OARS
. . .
(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.


Link to ColRegs -
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7ca25340f0b65b3de0a2bc/msn1781.pdf