suitcase generator vs running the (main) engine?

[ctva]

For our set up as previously mentioned, two 100w dodger mounted panels in parallel with a PWM controller from Photonic Universe, we put the fridge on full time and mostly on full power (need ice cubes) which draws about 2.2amps on a roughly 1/4 - 1/3 time cycle, N2K network with wheel pilot, MFD, 2 displays, 2 iPhones, iPad, VHF and all LED lights. In the Scottish summer the solar provides all we need. In the winter, the vertical panels keep the batteries topped up in between visits.

As to the other items mentioned, 12v vacuum, cordless angle grinder and drills, no microwave or latte maker.

 

[Tranona]

It was a nice morning, so after doing a bit of work on the boat I walked the pontoons. There are approx 200 boats in the marina in the 28 -40' range - the majority over 30'. In other words the sector the OP falls into. There are no liveaboards in our club marina - not allowed.

Of these 200, 10 have permanently mounted solar panels, 8 small (10 or 20w) and only 2 had significant size panels, one an HR36 and the other a Catalac 9m which has a platform over the wheelhouse covered with panels. 5 boats have wind generators. 3 have gantries - the HR for the panels and other bits and pieces, a Countess 33, but not capable of taking panels and a Hunter Legend where the gantry is there primarily for the mainsheet and the bimini.

I wonder how all these boats manage to actively cruise given they don't have any solar? even though people on here seem to think the first thing one should do is to add as much solar as possible. Maybe we are a bit thick and backward down here in Poole! However we all seem to manage perfectly well sailing around the Channel and for some further afield.

Always in my view better to start from the empirical evidence given that full information of what is available is in the public domain. Empirical evidence tells you what people actually do - or in this case how they equip their boats. This is the real world and while some people choose to do things differently it is a mistake to think that everybody else should. If solar really was essential, or even just desirable why have only 5% of my club members' boat fitted it, and only 1% (two boats) in a way that it is a major contributor to their power requirements?

Of course if one did a survey of bigger boats and particularly if you went to different locations, you would find different patterns - but I go back to the key point - the OP's requirements are more like my fellow club members and a long way from needing solar as a significant contributor to his power needs.

Why don't those who have used this thread as an opportunity to show off how they use their boats and benefit from solar just start a thread on the subject instead of ignoring the OP who was only looking for guidance as to the options for upgrading his 1980s boat for a bit more ambitious cruising than weekend pottering.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Yawn!

 

[Gary Fox]

.....I'm reminded of a story told here many years ago of someone who invited a friend and his family - wife and 2 daughters IIRC, thinking it would be nice to go off for a week visiting delightful anchorages. The actual history of the trip was a trudge from marina to marina to fill up the empty water tank every day...

I have a friend who skippers Lagoon type holiday charter boats in Croatia, and several times the group have emptied the huge f/w tanks in one day. Then complained they were not off a sandy beach but in a rough fishing harbour filling up again..
A woman and her brats pathologically needed to have the tap running while they brushed their teeth, so J. pulled the breaker on the electric pump. The result was, they stood at the sink brushing while simultaneously pedalling the foot operated pump so the tap was running albeit at a reduced rate

 

[Mistroma]

1%-5% with significant solar charging sounds about right. I remember thinking that only a very small proportion of boats in a marina did much cruising. Many never seemed to leave, a large number raced or day sailed, quite a few only used marinas and a smaller number spent a lot of time overnight at anchor. It might have changed as I haven't sailed in the UK for more than a decade.

I made the common mistake of fitting a wind-gen as solar wouldn't be a lot of use in Scotland (Blindingly obvious but wrong). I saw very few boats with solar panels as they were very expensive at that time. A few calculations showed that I would have been better with solar even at that time.

Solar panel efficiency has improved and prices have fallen considerably. MPPT regulators help both solar and wind charging. However, the underlying physics leans heavily towards solar as the better source for charging.

I still run into people who think that solar would be a waste of money in Scotland and wind will obviously be a lot better. Solar is now probably 8-10 times better value than a wind-gen but a lot of sailors in UK don't appear to realise that yet. The first post indicated that advice was mainly sought for cruising away from marina shore power.

I'm not really surprised that a large proportion of boats don't fit solar in the UK. Many don't need any additional charging as marina shore power is sufficient. I imagine the people who do cruise a lot will eventually work out the financial advantage of solar over most other charging methods.

 

[ctva]

looking to get our boat kitted out for some (hopefully) longer journeys next year.

we don't generally marina hop so being able to have enough electricity to do what we need to do is a factor we are thinking about. The boat isn't full of bells and whistles so power use isn't huge but will run to lighting, forced air heating (hopefully!), auto-helm, instruments, charging phones, tablet etc.
...

It was a nice morning, so after doing a bit of work on the boat I walked the pontoons. There are approx 200 boats in the marina in the 28 -40' range - the majority over 30'. In other words the sector the OP falls into.
...

I think it is you who need to RTFOP (Read The 'First' Opening Post for the benefit of the forum polis ).

 

[PaulRainbow]

I wonder how all these boats manage to actively cruise given they don't have any solar? even though people on here seem to think the first thing one should do is to add as much solar as possible. Maybe we are a bit thick and backward down here in Poole! However we all seem to manage perfectly well sailing around the Channel and for some further afield.

Seems a bit harsh to think that of everyone, but there does seem to be one or two who struggle to grasp new concepts

 

[PaulRainbow]

Why don't those who have used this thread as an opportunity to show off how they use their boats and benefit from solar just start a thread on the subject instead of ignoring the OP who was only looking for guidance as to the options for upgrading his 1980s boat for a bit more ambitious cruising than weekend pottering.

Alternatively, why don't you just answer the OPs question, as you seem to know all of the answers ?

So:

"we don't generally marina hop so being able to have enough electricity to do what we need to do is a factor we are thinking about. "

The OP has stated that he may be away for up to two weeks at a time, how do you suggest he meets his power requirements ?

 

[ctva]

Alternatively, why don't you just answer the OPs question, as you seem to know all of the answers ?

So:

"we don't generally marina hop so being able to have enough electricity to do what we need to do is a factor we are thinking about. "

The OP has stated that he may be away for up to two weeks at a time, how do you suggest he meets his power requirements ?

I think we're flogging a dead horse here. Chae_73 has some good answers despite some posts.

 

[dgadee]

I still don't accept that daily shower is essential to the sailing regime - I don't even have a daily shower at home but I do wash daily by other means. If you're not careful your boat becomes progressively damp.

Cockpit shower is your answer. The crew is happy to don a swimsuit and ablute anywhere.

ps: I just take a quick dip off the side. Fairy liquid works well in sea water.

 

[geem]

It was a nice morning, so after doing a bit of work on the boat I walked the pontoons. There are approx 200 boats in the marina in the 28 -40' range - the majority over 30'. In other words the sector the OP falls into. There are no liveaboards in our club marina - not allowed.

Of these 200, 10 have permanently mounted solar panels, 8 small (10 or 20w) and only 2 had significant size panels, one an HR36 and the other a Catalac 9m which has a platform over the wheelhouse covered with panels. 5 boats have wind generators. 3 have gantries - the HR for the panels and other bits and pieces, a Countess 33, but not capable of taking panels and a Hunter Legend where the gantry is there primarily for the mainsheet and the bimini.

I wonder how all these boats manage to actively cruise given they don't have any solar? even though people on here seem to think the first thing one should do is to add as much solar as possible. Maybe we are a bit thick and backward down here in Poole! However we all seem to manage perfectly well sailing around the Channel and for some further afield.

Always in my view better to start from the empirical evidence given that full information of what is available is in the public domain. Empirical evidence tells you what people actually do - or in this case how they equip their boats. This is the real world and while some people choose to do things differently it is a mistake to think that everybody else should. If solar really was essential, or even just desirable why have only 5% of my club members' boat fitted it, and only 1% (two boats) in a way that it is a major contributor to their power requirements?

Of course if one did a survey of bigger boats and particularly if you went to different locations, you would find different patterns - but I go back to the key point - the OP's requirements are more like my fellow club members and a long way from needing solar as a significant contributor to his power needs.

Why don't those who have used this thread as an opportunity to show off how they use their boats and benefit from solar just start a thread on the subject instead of ignoring the OP who was only looking for guidance as to the options for upgrading his 1980s boat for a bit more ambitious cruising than weekend pottering.

I heard a great statistic once. No idea if it's true or accurate but it sort of fits with the discussion. 'Only 1/3 if yachts in a marina routinely go out. Of these only 1/3 are competent'. It you don't go anywhere why do you need solar when the three pin plug is your best friend

 

[Tranona]

Seems a bit harsh to think that of everyone, but there does seem to be one or two who struggle to grasp new concepts

It is not a question of grasping new concepts, but looking atr them and assessing whether they are of any benefit. Clearly 190 of our club members have gone through that process - after all solar panels are not new or secret - and decided no.

I think we're flogging a dead horse here. Chae_73 has some good answers despite some posts.

No. That is only one thing he said - he also said he does not want to fit a gantry which would be necessary to fit the kind of solar you are advocating. Clearly IF his power consumption exceeds his capacity to generate via his motoring while cruising he is going to have to re-assess his strategy.

He has indeed had some good answers but not from the sources that you might think are good.

 

[PaulRainbow]

It is not a question of grasping new concepts, but looking atr them and assessing whether they are of any benefit. Clearly 190 of our club members have gone through that process - after all solar panels are not new or secret - and decided no.

What your club members have decided is up to them. Many boats in my marina have no solar panels either. None of the boats that never leave the marina need solar panels, shore power works fine. None of the day sailors need them. Most of the people who marina hop don't need them. Most of the people who mostly motor or motor sail don't need them. No one like you will ever benefit from them.

Those, like the OP, who want to spend time away from shore power will benefit greatly from solar power.

No. That is only one thing he said - he also said he does not want to fit a gantry which would be necessary to fit the kind of solar you are advocating. Clearly IF his power consumption exceeds his capacity to generate via his motoring while cruising he is going to have to re-assess his strategy.

He has indeed had some good answers but not from the sources that you might think are good.
[/QUOTE]

Once again you demonstrate your complete lack of understanding of the subject matter and your stubborn refusal to read what has been posted by several people. A gantry is NOT necessary to fit the kind of solar power that has been discussed within this thread, several forum members have explained how their panels are fitted, some even showing photographs.

You just keep making things up that are plainly nonsense, any further discourse with you here is totally pointless.

 

[Tranona]

I heard a great statistic once. No idea if it's true or accurate but it sort of fits with the discussion. 'Only 1/3 if yachts in a marina routinely go out. Of these only 1/3 are competent'. It you don't go anywhere why do you need solar when the three pin plug is your best friend

You seem to misunderstand statistics, confusing them with data. I showed hard data - that is the number of cases in each category. Statistics give data meaning.

The so called statistics you have quoted only have meaning if they are derived from actual data, whereas they are probably just one person's guess used to illustrate a personally held belief.

This is in no way related to the issue under discussion which seems to have strayed from the original question as to whether solar is useful for the type of cruising the OP intends to do. I was just illustrating that a large number of similar people/boats do not think so. It only becomes a statistic when I turn it into %ages, which actually does not add much. If you want more meaning you then have to ask if my sample is representative of the population as a whole.

My belief, based on casual observation of a larger number of similar boats over the years is that it is probably fairly representative. However if I looked at a different category of boats with a different pattern of usage, I would no doubt a different level of adoption of solar power. The lack of adoption in one category does not as some say indicate an unwillingness to adopt new ideas but a simple consumer decision - it does not add value to them.

 

[PaulRainbow]

It is not a question of grasping new concepts, but looking atr them and assessing whether they are of any benefit. Clearly 190 of our club members have gone through that process - after all solar panels are not new or secret - and decided no.

No. That is only one thing he said - he also said he does not want to fit a gantry which would be necessary to fit the kind of solar you are advocating. Clearly IF his power consumption exceeds his capacity to generate via his motoring while cruising he is going to have to re-assess his strategy.

He has indeed had some good answers but not from the sources that you might think are good.

Oh, you forgot to answer post #68

 

[Tranona]

What your club members have decided is up to them. Many boats in my marina have no solar panels either. None of the boats that never leave the marina need solar panels, shore power works fine. None of the day sailors need them. Most of the people who marina hop don't need them. Most of the people who mostly motor or motor sail don't need them. No one like you will ever benefit from them.

Those, like the OP, who want to spend time away from shore power will benefit greatly from solar power.

No. That is only one thing he said - he also said he does not want to fit a gantry which would be necessary to fit the kind of solar you are advocating. Clearly IF his power consumption exceeds his capacity to generate via his motoring while cruising he is going to have to re-assess his strategy.

He has indeed had some good answers but not from the sources that you might think are good.

Once again you demonstrate your complete lack of understanding of the subject matter and your stubborn refusal to read what has been posted by several people. A gantry is NOT necessary to fit the kind of solar power that has been discussed within this thread, several forum members have explained how their panels are fitted, some even showing photographs.

You just keep making things up that are plainly nonsense, any further discourse with you here is totally pointless.
[/QUOTE]
I have read everything that you and others have written and it seems to me that just because I said that solar would not play a major part in his plans you immediately jumped on that and ignored everything that I and others had said to that point. There is no disagreement that if you want to spend time away from shorepower solar will be useful - indeed I said so myself in answer to the OP (not that you would have bothered to read it) but from my reading of the OPs current situation and future plans that is not his immediate intention.

As to not reading what others have written please tell me why accounts of running televisions, sound systems, computers living on boats for weeks at a time, spending months living on board in Holland or being able to run 2 large refrigerators in the tropics has to do with cruising aa Westerly Storm (which currently does not even have a fridge) around the UK coast?

And please stop insulting me by suggesting I do not understand the subject matter.

 

[Graham376]

Having read most of the posts, I find some rather strange e.g. I see no point in installing a new engine with larger alternator to glaze the bores charging batteries. Fitting larger battery bank is good advice but, that increases the charging problem as undercharging isn't good for battery life

We've always been mooring based and when weekend sailing, found a 25w solar panel charged the batteries during the week ready for the weekend. Once we started longer trips, fitted 200w of solar to the guard wires which worked OK, supplemented occasionally by Honda 2.0i generator and Aerogen4, later moved the panels to a gantry which doubles up as davits. In much warmer climates with the fridge running harder, uprated to 320w which cope all year round and now only used the generator for power tools or microwave very occasionally, Aerogen binned. Often use camping shower bags, can always be topped up from kettle if little sun.

 

[geem]

You seem to misunderstand statistics, confusing them with data. I showed hard data - that is the number of cases in each category. Statistics give data meaning.

The so called statistics you have quoted only have meaning if they are derived from actual data, whereas they are probably just one person's guess used to illustrate a personally held belief.

This is in no way related to the issue under discussion which seems to have strayed from the original question as to whether solar is useful for the type of cruising the OP intends to do. I was just illustrating that a large number of similar people/boats do not think so. It only becomes a statistic when I turn it into %ages, which actually does not add much. If you want more meaning you then have to ask if my sample is representative of the population as a whole.

My belief, based on casual observation of a larger number of similar boats over the years is that it is probably fairly representative. However if I looked at a different category of boats with a different pattern of usage, I would no doubt a different level of adoption of solar power. The lack of adoption in one category does not as some say indicate an unwillingness to adopt new ideas but a simple consumer decision - it does not add value to them.

All you have confirmed with you data is that nobody in your marina has solar. Did you go around and interview everybody or send them a questionnaire? No if course not. So my comment that was not based on data but was probably pretty indicative of how marina boats can be used suggests a lot of marina boats don't go anywhere. It is likely they hop from one marina to another if they do, like yourself.
If you went to the Isles of Scilly where there are no marinas and boats stay for a week or two at anchor or on a mooring you would undoubtedly get a different view in how people use solar. Those are the kind of cruisers who value solar for the independence it brings away from the three pin plug. We were there a few weeks ago for three weeks and we didn't see a single yacht using a suitcase generator. Solar was king

 

[PaulRainbow]

And please stop insulting me by suggesting I do not understand the subject matter.

Amongst your claims in this thread are:

"Solar is of limited use as a major source of charging to replace daily consumption as you can't get big enough panels on that size boat"

"nor is the sun reliable enough in northern climates. "

"I specifically said that solar would be unlikely to meet his daily consumption "

"So with an hour motoring at the beginning and end of a sailing day gives me a deficit of 40amps a day. Solar would not make much of a dent in that. "

These claims are all totally incorrect, demonstrating that you clearly do not understand the subject matter. No insult intended, i've just tried to point out that your assumptions are incorrect, as have almost everyone else in the thread.

You have still failed to offer any solutions for the OPs power generation for a 2 week trip with no shore power.

 

[Stemar]

I can't speak for marina-based boats, as I don't do marinas, but the proportion of boats with some sort of solar power on my club pontoon is probably 50%+. In a marina, you plug in, so your battery bank is fully charged when you leave. On a mooring, you don't have that luxury. I would also venture to suggest that many marina-based boats will be visiting other marinas fairly regularly, so a top-up is easy.

Jissel had two 20w panels and they were just enough to keep up with our modest needs at anchor in the summer. In winter, I'd spend a weekend working on the boat with no shore power and, with the help of the engine running for a few minutes to go to and from the mooring, the batteries would be fully charged by the next weekend. Solar isn't a magic cure-all for electrical supply, but it's high on my list of priorities for Jazzcat.

Incidentally, I have an engineer friend who is a self-confessed anorak about such things. He did some research on wind patterns and the published output of his Rutland wind generator, and sunshine hours and the output of his 100W of solar power and, over a year, the panel gave several times the power, with no noise or bearings to fail, and for a LOT less money. When the time came for the wind genny's third set of bearings, he binned it.