laika
Well-known member
Gah! And what about those between 10 and 20 tons? (or have they added some heftier ones since I was last there)?
Studland - MMO Management protocols for the MCZ in place from 17th December
- Thread starter oldharry
- Start date
Boathook
Well-known member
See my post 199. Same will apply.
prestomg27
Active member
I wouldn't have thought so. I imagine only those supplied by people that the poster describes with condescension and judgement as 'do-gooders'
Babylon
Well-known member
What is the point of this post?
oldharry
Well-known member
Quite a lot I would think. Most mooring contractors or private individuals who lay moorings know pretty well what is needed, and havea vested interest in ensuring they are fit for purpose. What we have in Studland is well intentioned Conservationists trying to dictate to us what we must and must not do. How much boating experience does NGM have for example, other than riding in Dive boats? How well qualified is he to draw up specs for the visitor moorings? If you think I am OTT saying this, Natural England at one point produced a report which amongst many other requirements stipulated that all mooring buoys throughout UK should be colour coded according to weight and type. This from an organisation who were not even aware of the existence of Torquay harbour when they first proposed an MCZ in Torbay to protect eelgrass there. It was only when the Torquay HM asked them what would happen to his harbour, that they realised there was an issue!
If only these organisations had opted to work WITH the boating community from day one - telling us the issues they perceived and discussing with us ways and means of working round them so that we could all pull together on this, then a huge amount of time, money and effort could have been saved. Instead even on the hallowed pages of this forum they were telling us we were wrecking the environment and they were enacting legislation to close the bay, without even telling us what the perceived issues were. When we began to winkle out of them what they thought was wrong we were confornted bya massive smokescreen of school boy and fake science, coupled with an calm assurance that 'we would never understand the issues'.
In Wales, a project run by Dr Unwin of Swansea Uni Oceanographic Dept in Milford Haven did just this: working with local boat clubs and boatyards a scheme was worked out and put in place which allowed boaters to continue to use such gems as Dale in a way that ensured the survival of the eelgrass and it's denizens.
Boathook
Well-known member
I think that I saw him on TV a year or so ago talking about the eelgrass. I seem to remember that he seemed very sensible and pragmatic about involving all parties and the need to protect all sources of income, etc for the locals plus the area being used for pleasure.
Shame he wasn't in charge of what's happened or even happening at Studland from the start.
oldharry
Well-known member
Yes, he is very convincing, but he is a crusader, not a negotiator, and realistic negotiation is desparately needed to make conservation work in modern society. MMO see this, and go to considerable lengths to make things work for both sides. They have to make it work so that they can police it effectively!
I have met NGM on numerous occasions both 1:1 and across the table in dozens of meetings, as well as numerous lengthy phone calls with him trying to find common ground. Thankfully from my point of view he was not in charge: that fell to MMO who did a valiant job under considerable pressure from NGM and his followers. But it is my opinion that things would have been resolved happily many years ago had they not applied that pressure, and the present outcome a VNAZ with the overriding proviso of anchoring to prevent or avoid an emergency, could have been in place as long as 8 years ago. Also we boaters would have had a much clearer idea of how and why we could help Studlands environment, had the RYA and I been better supported with the 'Anchoring with Care' leaflet I proposed and which we produced in 2014.
The feedback Boaters gave us at the time generally welcomed it for its clear simple explanation of the eelgrass issues, and advice on handling boats so as to avoid damage to the eelgrass environment. It was all that was needed, while the then Head of Conservation at MMO welcomed it and fully endorsed it. All that has happened since, and the several millions of public money spent has only served to harden the battle lines and generate a lot of unnecessary bad publicity. Thats what happens when Crusaders get loose.
It is interesting to note that the main local Conservation authority, Dorset Wildlife Trust, supported us in producing that leaflet and were one of the first to support it, but they carefully avoided involvement in the arguments ('selfish yotties destroying the environment' headlines in the press and media) generated by NGM and his mate Packham over the ensuing years. That speaks volumes to me.
In Wales, Dr Steve Unwin of Swansea Uni Oceanographic Dept took a line similar to mine: There is a major eelgrass bed in the sheltered mooring area at Dale in Pembs. Dr Unwin negotiated with the local SC and boatyards and produced a scheme which works well for everyone, while ensuring Conservation objectives can be maintained. We could easily have done that in Studland, but for the obsession with the seahorses, which are also well established in Poole harbour and right along the S Coast. Curiously they dont get the attention and publicity of the odd seahorse that gets swept in to Studland by the tide and makes its home there.
chrishscorp
Well-known member
I attended the boat show twice, on the second occasion I visited the RYA stand green / blue and during a conversation about me installing a new mooring, it came to light that there is a new voluntary no anchoring zone off Osborne Bay due to the sea grass which was the subject of consultation meetings.....
Did anyone on here pick up there was a consultation underway ?
Did anyone on here pick up there was a consultation underway ?
Seven Spades
Well-known member
Why is it that they only want to establish conservation areas where boat anchor? It seems to me that there are thousands of miles of coastline and the only areas that are being targeted are anchorages.
chrishscorp
Well-known member
Because that is also the only places that sea grass grows due to the same requirements of shelter
Seven Spades
Well-known member
Do you know that for a fact or is it just easier to look for it in sheltered areas? I bet there is lots of weed in exposed areas where people do not usually anchor, often anchorages are unsuitable becaue of wash or because it is exposed and not because the condition are wrong.
chrishscorp
Well-known member
It only grows so far across Studland bay as beyond a certain point the winter storms in the prevailing wind direction rip it up and chuck it on the beach and needs to be in under 5 meters of water generally as turbidity of the water stops it growing, in the Scillies I believe it can grow in up to 10 Meters
oldharry
Well-known member
Yes that's right, eelgrass only grows in the kind of sheltered waters we look for as anchorages. There is seagrass elsewhere, and it is all known and recorded. Good shelter doesn't always mean a good anchorage, or a place boats would want or need to stop, while a good anchorage often offers ideal seagrass growing conditions.
Osborne Bay got dropped from the original round because it provides essential overflow for Cowes, specially in Cowes week, but I am not surprised NE have got back on the case, because it is one of the major Solent seagrass beds.
In the Solent, watch next for the Seaview anchorage, they have that in their sights too.
Osborne Bay got dropped from the original round because it provides essential overflow for Cowes, specially in Cowes week, but I am not surprised NE have got back on the case, because it is one of the major Solent seagrass beds.
In the Solent, watch next for the Seaview anchorage, they have that in their sights too.
oldharry
Well-known member
I have done a bit of research (between hospital visits) in to what is going on in Osborne Bay.
Firstly it is NOT a formally recognised VNAZ. Only MMO can put in any legislation affecting the seabed and navigational rights, voluntary or otherwise. The best they can do is to ask for cooperation. But the request may be phrased to LOOK official, which seems to be happening here. We must ensure they dont pull the wool over our eyes!
An organisation sponsored by Natural England calling itself LIFE Recreation ReMEDIES (yes - no typos) which includes various Conservation groups including RYA, (that seems to me to be RYA's aim nowadays) and incredibly, Plymouth City Council, are working to preserve unprotected seagrass.
Reports here: LIFE Recreation - ReMEDIES River Medina and Osborne Bay, Isle of Wight Subtidal Seagrass Surveys 2020 - NECR372
and Seagrass restoration in the Solent Maritime SAC
Seaview and Bembridge has seagrass as well, and this has been on the books since 2010, although at this stage nothing has been done. I have had discussions in the past with Hampshire Wildlife Trust in which it was mentioned, but once they have buttoned up the bigger beds at Osborne, there's little doubt they will turn their attention there.
Could be that NE are not involving MMO in the discussions deliberately following their refusal to create the NAZ they wanted at Studland? NE cannot legislate over the seabed - yet.
Firstly it is NOT a formally recognised VNAZ. Only MMO can put in any legislation affecting the seabed and navigational rights, voluntary or otherwise. The best they can do is to ask for cooperation. But the request may be phrased to LOOK official, which seems to be happening here. We must ensure they dont pull the wool over our eyes!
An organisation sponsored by Natural England calling itself LIFE Recreation ReMEDIES (yes - no typos) which includes various Conservation groups including RYA, (that seems to me to be RYA's aim nowadays) and incredibly, Plymouth City Council, are working to preserve unprotected seagrass.
Reports here: LIFE Recreation - ReMEDIES River Medina and Osborne Bay, Isle of Wight Subtidal Seagrass Surveys 2020 - NECR372
and Seagrass restoration in the Solent Maritime SAC
Seaview and Bembridge has seagrass as well, and this has been on the books since 2010, although at this stage nothing has been done. I have had discussions in the past with Hampshire Wildlife Trust in which it was mentioned, but once they have buttoned up the bigger beds at Osborne, there's little doubt they will turn their attention there.
Could be that NE are not involving MMO in the discussions deliberately following their refusal to create the NAZ they wanted at Studland? NE cannot legislate over the seabed - yet.
Last edited:
alahol2
Well-known member
So, essentially, they found more seagrass than they expected and there was no evidence of anchor damage. This in September toward the end of the main 'anchoring season'.
Perhaps they should have had a look at Studland before the VNAZ.
Perhaps they should have had a look at Studland before the VNAZ.
oldharry
Well-known member
We did, So did the independent Seastar Survey in 2011. The only evidence of 'damage' was produced by NGM and SHT, purely anecdotal without any supporting measurements or scientific data. Seastar did a detailed study over 2 years. It was dismissed by NE as 'not scientific enough' and not up to the required standard for evidence. We produced video evidence in 2016 clearly demonstrating acres of healthy eelgrass, which on analysis showed it was in above average condition for the Dorset Coast. We also had 1st hand accounts from local inshore fishermen who confirmed the growth and spread of the eelgrass over 30 years.
It was all rejected as 'anecdotal'..... In other words it didnt support what the anonymous NE 'experts, on whose opinion 90% of the final report was based with very little factual supporting evdence, thought ought to be happening. Many of us speculated at the time whether they had ever actually been to Studland, or even knew where it was!
NE did produce a report, but BORG's scientific Advisor Dr Mike Simons found it so full of holes that he complained to DEFRA, who examined it and found it to be 'full of mistakes and errors'. NE subsequently withdrew it for re-drafting. It never reappeared.
Interesting that Osborne Bay seagrass is so prolific that they are actually usig it stock other parts of the Solent. They claim they are re-stocking, but how do you 're-stock' when there was nothing there in the first place!
finestgreen
Active member
You're asking why they only want to stop people anchoring where people anchor?
Boathook
Well-known member
Another round of surveys, etc from MMO. Haven't looked at it yet so no idea on how loaded the questions are.
Edit - questions fairly 'neutral' but you can't have a multi tick when it come to use or not of the ecco buoys.
Studland Bay VNAZ 2023 survey
Managing marine non-licensable activity in Studland Bay Marine Conservation ZoneEdit - questions fairly 'neutral' but you can't have a multi tick when it come to use or not of the ecco buoys.
Last edited:
Pete7
Well-known member
Filled it in and suggested they move the mooring buoys closer to the shore. They won't, but makes me feel happier I have had my say.
chrishscorp
Well-known member
We used Studland for the first time this year in 8 years of cruising on the south coast when we came back from Alderney, we picked up a buoy and had a very quiet evening. I counted some 35 ish boats there with at least 15 mooring buoys not in use so some 10 idiots sticking two fingers up and anchor where they are not meant too. With behaviour like that this will only go one way and that will be down to the idiot type boater