Stubborn Headsail won't set

TwinRudders

TwinRudders

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Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Hi - I have a Beneteau First 285, lifting keel, fractional rig down here in Poole.

Last year - we had new Kemp sails made - genoa and main. Performance upwind not very good. So we called in the Rig shop who felt that the main cause for this was lack of forestay tension. In the end they replaced the mast and most of the rigging, put in a beefy backstay arrangement, replaced the traveller with a useable one and bla bla bla.

All very nice - but still she won't point like she should do. I've seen other 285s point much better.

Most of the drive comes from the headsail, with the main acting mostly for helm balance. So you tend to use the traveller a lot to keep her upright in a gust. But it is impossible to get the headsail to set - telltales all over the place and the pointing angle poor. Now that's after considerable experiment with the genoa car position, backstay, halyard tension, even after a beer it still doesn't feel any better.

I've taken a pro onboard, and they tried and tried and gave up - saying basically that the genoa has too much luff curve - needs to be cut flatter - it's more like a reaching sale - not an upwind sale.

So I'm going to go back to Kemps and talk to them about getting it re-cut - just wondering if anyone has experience of this - or can think of other things to try.

I know - I could just ease off the wind a little, but there is more to this than that. I find it very frustrating sailing a boat when you can just FEEL that it's not right - it's being held back.

Thanks for any tips!

Jonny
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Tell us how you get on with Kemp. This does not bode well for them!
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Well - I'm not having a go at Kemps - if it needs to be re-cut then that's what needs to be done. I've always found Rob Kemp to be incredibly helpful and prepared to go out of his way to sort out problems.

They've asked for pictures of the sail in action first of all. We're off ona cruise to France next Friday so we'll do that and maybe post them here too.

J
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

look at your beneteau lifting keel -I had a first 26 -great boat but she did not point even with new quantum sails, it was keel design and position,if yours is same design -they used it on quite a few boats. If not forget what I am saying!Go for speed and you will keep up with your peers, but not upwind against the tide we found! We also found that she was better with less genoa area before you might usually think of reefing, in fact we often used the no2 to better effect....
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

That's very interesting. I had a Bene 26 - but fin keel and she pointed extremely well - without much effort and constant sail trimming! I think I thouht all boats would sail that well and that easily - I just wanted something a bit bigger with more headroom.

But I know guys who have the 285 with lifting keel who get them to point well.

I know you're going to get more leeway because there's only a narrow dagger board down below but why would that effect your actual intial angle on the wind?

What boat did you move on to?

Jonny
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Hi, I have a 26 lift keel and struggle to get much forestay tention I just find the mast bends at the top alot! any tips you can give me would be great. otherwise points quite well. thanks
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

[ QUOTE ]

Most of the drive comes from the headsail, with the main acting mostly for helm balance. Jonny

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised you say that, with the fractional rigs I've sailed nearly all the power comes from the main, so you must trim the sail perfectly (reefing is much better than dropping it down the traveller). But you do (as you mentioned) need a fairly flat cut foresail for pointing.
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Well fair point but you only have to take her out to see that the genoa is the power pack on these boats. The rigger I took out said as much. I do reef early - you have to - and then just ride the boat along using the traveller to maintain balance - that works well, but the genoa won't shape right - and the tell tales confirm that. (despite adjusting everything else)
J
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Why did you have new sails made, and then when they didn't work properly get a new mast and rigging? The first port of call should have been back to the sailmakers to ask their opinion.
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

To be fair I was comparing with some good boats -sigma 33, 38...proper if older cruiser racers. She held her own with most boats of similar size -except Sonata's!
Moved on to a first 31.7.....now that will point when set up properly!
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Well to be fair the original sails were awful and clearly past their best. The one thing that the sailmakers, the rigger and most other people commented on was the lack of forestay tension. In the end that turned out to lead to a much bigger job than expected but - it's a learning experience for me.
I mean these are sail makers who know this kind of boat very well and have done sail clinics on another one in Poole for PBO.

So I'm inclined to take their advice - but yes you're right - forestay tension is not the only thing that needed to be sorted, it seems the sail may need to be cut "flatter".

J
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

My experience of Kemp Sails (Rob and Matt) is that they will want to sort this out. They may be willing to come and see the sail in action?
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

QUOTE "So we called in the Rig shop who felt that the main cause for this was lack of forestay tension. In the end they replaced the mast and most of the rigging, put in a beefy backstay arrangement, replaced the traveller with a useable one and bla bla bla"

You're kidding right? How old is the boat? I have NEVER heard of a new mast being needed when a headsail is not setting correct. Seems crazy to me!

Also I am confused. I thought your boat would be fractional - so yes, they are right, a good traveller and beefed up backstay will really help drive upwind in a breeze..... it is a fractional rig isnt it?
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Well hang on - the Rig Shop took a look at the rig and as with everything else on this boat done by the previous owner, the forestay was only just hanging on. Interfaces on the mast needed replacing, the spreaders were failing - and it wasn't a lot more money to get a new mast.

BUT I didn't get a new mast because she wasn't pointing! But she does have a new mast. period.

The original traveller on these boats (1989) us universally known to be completely useless. the backstay needed a higher ratio to have some effect.

Yes it is a fractional rig.

J
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Okay, that's a misunderstanding then... but I am still a bit confused. With a boat like this I think when there's any breeze you get your drive from the main sail.... you won't get any kinda upwind performance if you are over-powered.

Is the performance poor throughout the wind range or just when the breeze is up?

Do you have a nice blade jib as well as a genoa... is the genoa roller furling?
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Hi - thanks for the interest. Really appreciated.

It's a rolling genoa. Performance off the wind is good - downwind with Spinnaker she is fast. Def the power is coming from the genoa, and the main needs a lot of outhaul slackness- big bulging main to add anything. Soon as you tighten the outhaul the speed comes off. (Obviously we tighten up as the wind gets up and have a Cunningham as well to flatten more) I'm happy to admit I am very confused by this rig - but then if a pro rigger can't get it to "go" then well... It would be interesting to go out for a sail with Rob Kemp.

What I have got is a racing No 1 Genoa - which we are going to try next week and see if this improves the performance. I have only tried this sail once when I first had the boat, in light airs and to be honest I didn't really know what I was doing.

When you say a blade jib - what do you mean?

Thanks, J
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Go to the Selden website and look at their rig tunig tips for a fractional rig. This may help you understand what your riggers were trying to achieve for you.
Then go to North Sails UK site,
section: information
Articles and tips
north fast course

this gives a very comprehensive description of the variable needed to set up rig and sails for both masthead and fractional rigs.

If nothing else, it will give you good suggestions on questions and discussion points for the kemp guys once they come and have a look at your sails.
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

We have first 38s5, fractional rig so not disimilar to yours. pointing upwind is not our strong point, some of which I put down to being rather broad in the beam - the boat not me. I agree alot of power comes from the headsail/slot combination but most prob from the main unless we are dumping down the traveller when overpowered. We find backstay tension first then halyard tension to get the sail flat, cars better a bit further forward than we initially think.
How big is the genny - our old 150% was a pig to set; new 135% much better (Quantum pentex on a roller).
I am assuming that the rigger has set the rig correctly.......
 
Re: Stubborn Headsail won\'t set

Yup I am thinking big headsail, light boat (even more compramised by lift keel arrangement) means that in F3 or more you are having to drop the main down track to depower but the result is that you keep closing the slot off and killing boat speed and point.... wonder if you can try a working jib rather than a genoa, bring the traveller up to get the boom on the centreline and power up the main to get some drive off the leech and have a nice open parallel slot with the headsail?
 
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