Structural Faults with Modern Yachts

[Twister_Ken]

Mike Nicholson's account here is interesting.

To add to it, I took a Jeanneau SO 42.2 upwind in about a F6 in the Adriatic, and it was slamming very badly - bit like a fairground ride with added salt spray. Below, the heads door had jumped off its rising butt (why?) hinges, and a good few deckhead light fittings were hanging from their wires, having been jerked out of their fittings. I believe it was a '99 or 2000 model.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
Robin said ".....We have no need to motor if there is wind! We would be making 7kts upwind at 28 degs apparent wind angle in F4 upwards and around 8.5kts if eased off - why would we need to motor?"

This sounds like flat seas sailing ...... Where do you sail? How about the performance in open water with a fully developed F5 sea? You must surely have to de-power your rig and ease of the wind ... say 7 deg at least? What would your speed be then ... and how much does she slam?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you need to remember that we are 41ft with a waterline under way over 36ft, so always going to exceed the figures of a 36 footer. Our boat is not a typical modern day AWB but was a fast cruiser/racer that was initially campaigned at One Ton Cup level, was ('Legende') a French Admiral's Cup Team member and won the SORC down under one year. We might free off from tight on the wind if the seas needed it but 28degs apparent is our optimum, we can go to 22 degs but speed drops from 7kts to 6kts, VMG roughly the same according to the instruments. If we do free off the speed would be the same or better but the overall tacking angle greater than our norm of around 80degs or less.

If we need to we have a non-standard cutter stay, usually not attached, and running backstays. We can set either a staysail or a storm jib on the detachable cutter stay and F8 upwind is the staysail and a double or triple reefed main. That is 'reportedly' from the original owners who took 6th place in an AZAB race 2 up. We are less gung ho these days.

Under engine we can motor very well. It is an easily driven hull and we have 44hp with an excellent 3 bladed Brunton prop which feathers under sail and automatically adjusts the pitch to suit the load under motor. We have motored straight into a F5 headwind and sea across Channel and had to use 2,600rpm for 6kts instead of our normal 2000rpm/6.5kts, max is 3,600. However motoring isn't smart! We were beating once along the North Brittany coast in a NE 5-6 and really enjoying overtaking boats that were motorsailing, including a nice similar sized wooden ketch that was really hobby horse pitching and being stopped by the seas off Isle De Batz. Stupidly when we couldn't quite clear the rough water race north of Batz without putting in another tack, I decided to motor just to clear the island - result was us doing just what I had seen the wooden ketch do, yes we were making headway but not fast or at all comfortable. Commonsense prevailed and we put another tack in out to sea, grins restored!

Generally speaking under sail we do not slam although going upwind at speed in a sea does mean we will inevitably find a wave or two that hits up front. Our last boat was a Westerly 33 ketch which had a deeper sharper forefoot than we have now but then we aren't as flat up front as some more modern designs. We usually keep the bow in the water and the forefoot is 'U' shaped rather than flat.

This is not our boat but a French sistership I had a pic of:-

 

[Sea Devil]

yes I remember the ads as well. I am not saying that Moody's are special or particularly good simply that I noticed that over the years the skeg on mine did acquire more bumps and scrapes as the years went by... from hitting underwater 'things' that I was not aware of... Did go over a tunny net once trapping me between the skeg and keel... no damage to the rudder - protected by the skeg.

I had a early Jaguar 25 from new. 6 months after I got it the transom hung rudder just snapped off in a 5-6 off Cape de la Hague - read all about it if interested under 'The First Time with VHF' on my site...

All these personal experiences make me question the 'spade' rudder.... Lot of very nice boats with them.. Majority of 'modern' boats have them but.... prefer not to be mid Atlantic making a jury rig if avoidable.. I just think they look very exposed and potentially subject to great strain... Not being dogmatic I hope just doubtful if they are the way to go for ocean cruisers....???

 

[mono]

I've always thought that transom hung rudders - without the lower support provided by a skeg - are particularly vulnerable...a fear not allayed when some friends lost the rudder off their Hustler 25 in the middle of the North Sea in heavy weather. They were very shocked - as you must have been when you lost the rudder off your Jaguar. I'll have a look at your website.

I wouldn't consider a boat with a spade rudder myself for offshore sailing but I think I might be unfairly prejudiced towards them. I do believe it's a matter of correct design and engineering and, as I said, the skeg on my first boat was pretty feeble - though I suppose it would have protected the rudder to some degree had it taken a knock.

What surprises me is that boats can founder as a result of water entering after damage to or failure of their rudders. Surely any boat going offshore should have its rudder enter the boat inside a sealed compartment or perhaps the boat should be protected by a watertight bulkhead? The idea that damage to the tube or lower bearing could lead to loss of the boat is unacceptable because it can so easily be avoided.

 

[TradewindSailor]

From reading the Dashews' books and marine accident reports it seems to me too many people hit the Epirb button when the water is coming over the cabin sole rather than looking for the leak.

I remember sailing a Fontain Pajot catamaran in 30 kts ish one night when the escape hatch catches broke. Water came flooding in and was causing near panic with the owner. I merely slowed the boat ... and headed it more off the wind .... while getting one of the less panicked crew to hold the escape hatch a tightly closed as she could. Once heading for the nearest downwind safe haven I found a way to secure the hatch and pumped the water out. By the way ... the owner was so panicked that he wrenched the float switch off the Rule pump whilst 'trying to get it to work' ....... it was actually working. I used the plastic handled whale gusher pump to help reduce the level ....... unfortuneately it was mounted 3 foot above the water, and the handle bent considerably under my enthusiastic pumping. I have absolutely no doubt that had I not been there the owner would have triggered the EPIRB and sat out in the cockpit and waited for help. At least with the FP catamaran it would probably survive in a flooded condition.

With the rudder problem ..... I've seen a few boats with cracks around the base of the rudder stock tube .... and some with cracks around the skegs. These leaks were not major ... the pumps being more than adequate to deal with the water. The damage was testament to poor structure or excessive loads. Certainly I would treat this sort of problem with an urgent haulout, survey, and a structural repair.

As for watertight bulkheads ...... I prefer proper easy access to the spaces so that problems are easy to detect and remedial action can be taken. A partial bulkhead may be in order though .... so that the steering zone can free-flood and the water is safely retained behind the partial bulkhead. You would need to inspect the zone frequently though.

As for boats foundering due to rudder damage ..... many remain floating for several days once the crew have been taken off.

 

[mono]

[ QUOTE ]
As for watertight bulkheads ...... I prefer proper easy access to the spaces so that problems are easy to detect and remedial action can be taken.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed but the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It's certainly an arrangement I had on my last boat.

The loss of the yacht Megawat through the rapid ingress of water after losing her rudder off Ireland lead the MCIB to request a review of the RCD to consider watertight arrangements in way of rudder stocks. No idea if they took any notice.