Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
There does seem to be conflicting views based on historical experience of the Bav's, could it be that there is a mix of quality in the build, a buyers lottery?
Structural Faults with Modern Yachts
- Thread starter TradewindSailor
- Start date
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Dare say you'd want the HR to be 'sea kindly' if your going take that much more time to do a passage.
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Oddly I had assumed that they were sea kindly but the trip I referred to had them complaining of sloppy seas when we were very comfortable. It was a beam reach in W4 so not a difficult course for the HR, (not as if they were needing to pretend to go upwind or anything /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif), but they genuinely found it uncomfortable and they have thousands of miles under the keel including a round Britain.
Dare say you'd want the HR to be 'sea kindly' if your going take that much more time to do a passage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oddly I had assumed that they were sea kindly but the trip I referred to had them complaining of sloppy seas when we were very comfortable. It was a beam reach in W4 so not a difficult course for the HR, (not as if they were needing to pretend to go upwind or anything /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif), but they genuinely found it uncomfortable and they have thousands of miles under the keel including a round Britain.
[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like your keel story is probably due to damage during a heavy grounding.
[/ QUOTE ]
Err I should clarify there was no specific damage to my keel or hull. I was just getting an independent opinion on how sound my whole keel support design was in view of problems on the larger Match 38 & 42 models.
Given what you have told us so far I doubt you would be happy sailing around in anything less than a wine glass shaped hull. Trouble is you already know the costs of upgrading a middle aged classic for blue water voyaging.
Buy a nearly new AWB and you run the risk of picking up a Friday afternoon boat with inherent production errors. While waiting for my boat to be lifted the surveyor told me one AWB horror story he was dealing with at the time. Maybe a froggy AWB in the 5 to 15 year age bracket is a good choice.
It sounds like your keel story is probably due to damage during a heavy grounding.
[/ QUOTE ]
Err I should clarify there was no specific damage to my keel or hull. I was just getting an independent opinion on how sound my whole keel support design was in view of problems on the larger Match 38 & 42 models.
Given what you have told us so far I doubt you would be happy sailing around in anything less than a wine glass shaped hull. Trouble is you already know the costs of upgrading a middle aged classic for blue water voyaging.
Buy a nearly new AWB and you run the risk of picking up a Friday afternoon boat with inherent production errors. While waiting for my boat to be lifted the surveyor told me one AWB horror story he was dealing with at the time. Maybe a froggy AWB in the 5 to 15 year age bracket is a good choice.
duncan
Well-Known Member
two points -
1. do not forget in your considerations of 'data' that incidence is going to be related to opportunity as well as risk and that
2. the data you really want is owned by the marine insurers who are not slow to rate any increased risk! It may even be in the public domain somewhere.
1. do not forget in your considerations of 'data' that incidence is going to be related to opportunity as well as risk and that
2. the data you really want is owned by the marine insurers who are not slow to rate any increased risk! It may even be in the public domain somewhere.
branko
Well-Known Member
Yes agree, they have a period ( Bav Match 42) with lower quality ( few crackings around keels were reported) , but it looks to me that they improve boat structural quality today.
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
If yours is 6 years old, then the build quality was OK then? Are there any reports of problems with Bavs that are also 6 years old I wonder?
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
I would have thought that almost any boat over, say 26 ft should be able to handle a beam reach in a F4!
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I would have thought that almost any boat over, say 26 ft should be able to handle a beam reach in a F4!
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It did, but they didn't! It was a HR 385 BTW. I didn't understand why they had to motorsail either, we made the 61ml trip in 8.75hrs, all under sail alone. I could understand why if the wind were less, because we have a large sail area and they have an in-mast main but a F4 beam wind surely should be perfect. I think they tried reefing the main for a while too whereas we had full sail, even though ordinarily we take a first reef at above about 16kts apparent. There was a left over sea from previous days of SWs and wind over tide for a time but even so, maybe we were more comfy simply by virtue of going faster, different wave period maybe.
I would have thought that almost any boat over, say 26 ft should be able to handle a beam reach in a F4!
[/ QUOTE ]
It did, but they didn't! It was a HR 385 BTW. I didn't understand why they had to motorsail either, we made the 61ml trip in 8.75hrs, all under sail alone. I could understand why if the wind were less, because we have a large sail area and they have an in-mast main but a F4 beam wind surely should be perfect. I think they tried reefing the main for a while too whereas we had full sail, even though ordinarily we take a first reef at above about 16kts apparent. There was a left over sea from previous days of SWs and wind over tide for a time but even so, maybe we were more comfy simply by virtue of going faster, different wave period maybe.
moondancer
Well-Known Member
Generally speaking the market dictates where yacht design is moving and the boats on sale are driven by the market and not the other way round.
A few boat shows ago the stand next to ours was selling a form of boat 'timeshare' ownership. Their main sales proposition was that research (I don't know the source but it sounded reasonable) showed that yachts in Marinas are used on average only 8 times per year.
They also claimed that the majority of cruising use was day sails, followed by weekend use and the odd annual weekly coastal cruise. I can't remember the numbers they quoted but the number of yachts actually used for long offshore passages was a very, very small proportion of the UK yacht 'fleet'.
The most heavily used yachts were those used for club racing as well as cruising.
So it seems that the market has followed this usage pattern. I have no doubt that mainstream designs now are far better generally and specifically for this sort of usage than they were even 5 years ago. Sailing characteristics of most modern yachts bear no comparison to those designed in the 70s/ 80s and 90s.
Are most of them a first choice for the ARC? Possibly not. But they are far better for the sort of sailing that most people do. The market has led manufacturers to the designs that we now have.
A few boat shows ago the stand next to ours was selling a form of boat 'timeshare' ownership. Their main sales proposition was that research (I don't know the source but it sounded reasonable) showed that yachts in Marinas are used on average only 8 times per year.
They also claimed that the majority of cruising use was day sails, followed by weekend use and the odd annual weekly coastal cruise. I can't remember the numbers they quoted but the number of yachts actually used for long offshore passages was a very, very small proportion of the UK yacht 'fleet'.
The most heavily used yachts were those used for club racing as well as cruising.
So it seems that the market has followed this usage pattern. I have no doubt that mainstream designs now are far better generally and specifically for this sort of usage than they were even 5 years ago. Sailing characteristics of most modern yachts bear no comparison to those designed in the 70s/ 80s and 90s.
Are most of them a first choice for the ARC? Possibly not. But they are far better for the sort of sailing that most people do. The market has led manufacturers to the designs that we now have.
zefender
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I crossed the atlantic in a bavaria 40ft. Every single hatch leaked. All the doors jammed at some stage. The flooring also moved making lifting boards to look at the bilges impossible. The in boom reefing also failed. On the back of that experience, I would never buy a bavaria for such trips. Very subjective, but thats my penniesworth. Hope it helps.
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I took my Bav 40 (2001) across the Atlantic. No hatch leaked. No doors jammed. No stuck flooring. The reefing never failed. In fact, we encountered not one single fault on the route from the UK to the Canaries and then onto St. Lucia, despite encountering benign as well as tougher conditions. The only potential weakness I think (and I'm talking about nearly all AWB brands here) is the unsupported spade rudder. If I were thinking about long term long distance sailing, I would probably prefer some kind of support.
I crossed the atlantic in a bavaria 40ft. Every single hatch leaked. All the doors jammed at some stage. The flooring also moved making lifting boards to look at the bilges impossible. The in boom reefing also failed. On the back of that experience, I would never buy a bavaria for such trips. Very subjective, but thats my penniesworth. Hope it helps.
[/ QUOTE ]
I took my Bav 40 (2001) across the Atlantic. No hatch leaked. No doors jammed. No stuck flooring. The reefing never failed. In fact, we encountered not one single fault on the route from the UK to the Canaries and then onto St. Lucia, despite encountering benign as well as tougher conditions. The only potential weakness I think (and I'm talking about nearly all AWB brands here) is the unsupported spade rudder. If I were thinking about long term long distance sailing, I would probably prefer some kind of support.
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
That's interesting, your Bav, 6 years old, same as branko, coincidence?
dom
Well-Known Member
Well Zeff I don't believe your story and Robin I don't believe your times! Zeff - your keel is surely on the transatlantic ridge somewhere. As for you Robin I reckon you are stll at sea crabbing sideways in every gust with more and more bits falling off.
Finally for what it is worth Galileo was taliking rubbish as the earth is clearly the centre of the universe. Can I prove it? - well yes I can. If we were really moving around the sun how come the earth doesn't feel like a ride at Alton Towers? QED. As for Einstein space time being bent by the keel of a MAB - pah. So Zef, Robin, Galileo, Albert in the words of Victor Meldrew - "I don't believe it"
Finally for what it is worth Galileo was taliking rubbish as the earth is clearly the centre of the universe. Can I prove it? - well yes I can. If we were really moving around the sun how come the earth doesn't feel like a ride at Alton Towers? QED. As for Einstein space time being bent by the keel of a MAB - pah. So Zef, Robin, Galileo, Albert in the words of Victor Meldrew - "I don't believe it"
TradewindSailor
Well-Known Member
I took my Bav 40 (2001) across the Atlantic. No hatch leaked. No doors jammed. No stuck flooring. The reefing never failed. In fact, we encountered not one single fault on the route from the UK to the Canaries and then onto St. Lucia, despite encountering benign as well as tougher conditions. The only potential weakness I think (and I'm talking about nearly all AWB brands here) is the unsupported spade rudder. If I were thinking about long term long distance sailing, I would probably prefer some kind of support.
[/ QUOTE ]
There shouldn't be any problem with a properly designed spade rudder. They've been around for at least 40 years.
I did come across either a Bavaria or a Beneteau a year ago that has a split nut on the thread at the top of the rudder shaft to stop the rudder falling out ...... it had a through bolt that pinched the nut to act as a sort of locknut. It didn't work and came off. The rudder dropped about 3 inches so that the quadrant wore on the plastic steering wire sheeves. That could have resulted in a total steering failure if it had gone on un-noticed for much longer.
[/ QUOTE ]
There shouldn't be any problem with a properly designed spade rudder. They've been around for at least 40 years.
I did come across either a Bavaria or a Beneteau a year ago that has a split nut on the thread at the top of the rudder shaft to stop the rudder falling out ...... it had a through bolt that pinched the nut to act as a sort of locknut. It didn't work and came off. The rudder dropped about 3 inches so that the quadrant wore on the plastic steering wire sheeves. That could have resulted in a total steering failure if it had gone on un-noticed for much longer.
moondancer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
There shouldn't be any problem with a properly designed spade rudder. They've been around for at least 40 years.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are mistaken. IMHO an unsupported spade rudder has many advantages for 'local' use. If I were going offshore I would be happier with a supported rudder. I think this is the consensus view as well.
There shouldn't be any problem with a properly designed spade rudder. They've been around for at least 40 years.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are mistaken. IMHO an unsupported spade rudder has many advantages for 'local' use. If I were going offshore I would be happier with a supported rudder. I think this is the consensus view as well.
TradewindSailor
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like your keel story is probably due to damage during a heavy grounding.
[/ QUOTE ]
Err I should clarify there was no specific damage to my keel or hull. I was just getting an independent opinion on how sound my whole keel support design was in view of problems on the larger Match 38 & 42 models.
Given what you have told us so far I doubt you would be happy sailing around in anything less than a wine glass shaped hull. Trouble is you already know the costs of upgrading a middle aged classic for blue water voyaging.
Buy a nearly new AWB and you run the risk of picking up a Friday afternoon boat with inherent production errors. While waiting for my boat to be lifted the surveyor told me one AWB horror story he was dealing with at the time. Maybe a froggy AWB in the 5 to 15 year age bracket is a good choice.
[/ QUOTE ]
'your keel story' ..... I was refering to the one on the yacht you saw being lifted .... not your own.
The type of boat I'm happy in rather depends on what I'm using it for. I don't think I would be able to cram all my cruising kit on a Bavaria, Beneteau, or similar without seriously overloading it for the ocean cruising I do .... horses for courses.
If the boat it lightly built it is probably designed to accelerate fast and hence getting rid of the rig loads in a gust. If it is weighed down those rig forces will travel into the hull and its structure rather than increasing speed.
Similarly if any boat is being stopped by a head sea the hull loads will increase significantly. Slamming will create much larger loads too.
All this means is that a lightly built boat with only weekend gear in it may fare well in a blow in the channel with only weekend stores on it ...... or even as a stripped out racer. Put all the gear in it that would be needed for a longer cruise and not only would the boat loose performance but the structural loads will be higher too ..... possibly resulting in an early demise of a previously good boat.
I know of a GibSea 37 that was only about 3 years old at the time. It had almost completed the UK - Caribbean - UK trip with a family on board. The decks were soft and the bulkheads had moved ......
[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like your keel story is probably due to damage during a heavy grounding.
[/ QUOTE ]
Err I should clarify there was no specific damage to my keel or hull. I was just getting an independent opinion on how sound my whole keel support design was in view of problems on the larger Match 38 & 42 models.
Given what you have told us so far I doubt you would be happy sailing around in anything less than a wine glass shaped hull. Trouble is you already know the costs of upgrading a middle aged classic for blue water voyaging.
Buy a nearly new AWB and you run the risk of picking up a Friday afternoon boat with inherent production errors. While waiting for my boat to be lifted the surveyor told me one AWB horror story he was dealing with at the time. Maybe a froggy AWB in the 5 to 15 year age bracket is a good choice.
[/ QUOTE ]
'your keel story' ..... I was refering to the one on the yacht you saw being lifted .... not your own.
The type of boat I'm happy in rather depends on what I'm using it for. I don't think I would be able to cram all my cruising kit on a Bavaria, Beneteau, or similar without seriously overloading it for the ocean cruising I do .... horses for courses.
If the boat it lightly built it is probably designed to accelerate fast and hence getting rid of the rig loads in a gust. If it is weighed down those rig forces will travel into the hull and its structure rather than increasing speed.
Similarly if any boat is being stopped by a head sea the hull loads will increase significantly. Slamming will create much larger loads too.
All this means is that a lightly built boat with only weekend gear in it may fare well in a blow in the channel with only weekend stores on it ...... or even as a stripped out racer. Put all the gear in it that would be needed for a longer cruise and not only would the boat loose performance but the structural loads will be higher too ..... possibly resulting in an early demise of a previously good boat.
I know of a GibSea 37 that was only about 3 years old at the time. It had almost completed the UK - Caribbean - UK trip with a family on board. The decks were soft and the bulkheads had moved ......
TradewindSailor
Well-Known Member
I said '..... a properly designed spade rudder'
A catelever can be designed to hold as much load as a simply supported beam. ..... the scantlings will be different though.
I know that there have been some noteable failures in the past ...... but that doesn't mean that the concept is bad, merely that the rudders either could not take the load, dropped out due to failure of a poor stock design, or some other problem.
A catelever can be designed to hold as much load as a simply supported beam. ..... the scantlings will be different though.
I know that there have been some noteable failures in the past ...... but that doesn't mean that the concept is bad, merely that the rudders either could not take the load, dropped out due to failure of a poor stock design, or some other problem.
dom
Well-Known Member
AWB Ben First 38 was 2nd in infamous Sydney Hobart race and First 40.7 won on corrected time a couple of years ago. So:
"lightly built boat with only weekend gear in it may fare well in a blow in the channel"
Are you sure about that?
I am not even saying that this was more than luck in that case, as in my view that is all it probably was. But there you go - ultimate survivability does not favour ony one make.
There have been good and lousy boats right through the years. As others have said boats are made for all sorts of purposes often by the same manufacturer. Just pick what you want and forget any sweeping generalisations. They are of course a lot of fun!
"lightly built boat with only weekend gear in it may fare well in a blow in the channel"
Are you sure about that?
I am not even saying that this was more than luck in that case, as in my view that is all it probably was. But there you go - ultimate survivability does not favour ony one make.
There have been good and lousy boats right through the years. As others have said boats are made for all sorts of purposes often by the same manufacturer. Just pick what you want and forget any sweeping generalisations. They are of course a lot of fun!
TradewindSailor
Well-Known Member
DOM wrote:
"lightly built boat with only weekend gear in it may fare well in a blow in the channel"
Are you sure about that?"
Don't dismiss a 'blow in the Channel' as being a storm in a tea cup. You can get some seriously boat threatening weather in the Channel!
You're missing the point again. I am not looking for another boat ..... well not yet anyway. What I want to know is what damage has occured during normal ware and tear.
Let's broaden it a little. Is there anyone out there that has successfully sailed these boats through heavy head seas and been perfectly happy with the boats performance and structure?
Is there any problems with slamming?
"lightly built boat with only weekend gear in it may fare well in a blow in the channel"
Are you sure about that?"
Don't dismiss a 'blow in the Channel' as being a storm in a tea cup. You can get some seriously boat threatening weather in the Channel!
You're missing the point again. I am not looking for another boat ..... well not yet anyway. What I want to know is what damage has occured during normal ware and tear.
Let's broaden it a little. Is there anyone out there that has successfully sailed these boats through heavy head seas and been perfectly happy with the boats performance and structure?
Is there any problems with slamming?
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Well Zeff I don't believe your story and Robin I don't believe your times! Zeff - your keel is surely on the transatlantic ridge somewhere. As for you Robin I reckon you are stll at sea crabbing sideways in every gust with more and more bits falling off.
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
That is almost the ideas the constant brainwashing promotes!
BTW our best Channel Run from Cherbourg East Entrance to Poole was dead on 8hrs despite taking a bit of a scenic route by getting set too far east. The wind was E6-7 gusting 8 with big spring tides and I admit we did put the sprayhood back up, something we rarely do at sea, but that meant we didn't need our wet gear apart from a couple of rougue splashes I didn't duck quickly enough for. That time is surely beatable one day! By contrast a certain ultra expensive ocean crosser of note (bigger than us) and held in awe by many came in with leaking hatches, portlights and water down below, despite taking an hour longer.
Let them buy slow and stodgy I say, so what if their grins are not wall to wall like ours...
Robin
Well Zeff I don't believe your story and Robin I don't believe your times! Zeff - your keel is surely on the transatlantic ridge somewhere. As for you Robin I reckon you are stll at sea crabbing sideways in every gust with more and more bits falling off.
[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
That is almost the ideas the constant brainwashing promotes!
BTW our best Channel Run from Cherbourg East Entrance to Poole was dead on 8hrs despite taking a bit of a scenic route by getting set too far east. The wind was E6-7 gusting 8 with big spring tides and I admit we did put the sprayhood back up, something we rarely do at sea, but that meant we didn't need our wet gear apart from a couple of rougue splashes I didn't duck quickly enough for. That time is surely beatable one day! By contrast a certain ultra expensive ocean crosser of note (bigger than us) and held in awe by many came in with leaking hatches, portlights and water down below, despite taking an hour longer.
Let them buy slow and stodgy I say, so what if their grins are not wall to wall like ours...
Robin
[ QUOTE ]
'your keel story' ..... I was referring to the one on the yacht you saw being lifted .... not your own.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh got you now, in that case the anecdote will concern you more. The said 10 year old, 36ft UK design had no known problems. The following day the owner turned up oblivious to the shoring up events of the day before, as far as he was concerned it was a routine spring haul out weekend for prop polishing and antifouling.
Left me with a dilemma whether to mention what happened and possibly spoil his season by causing him to worry unnecessarily about what might be typical rough boat handling in a boat yard.
'your keel story' ..... I was referring to the one on the yacht you saw being lifted .... not your own.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh got you now, in that case the anecdote will concern you more. The said 10 year old, 36ft UK design had no known problems. The following day the owner turned up oblivious to the shoring up events of the day before, as far as he was concerned it was a routine spring haul out weekend for prop polishing and antifouling.
Left me with a dilemma whether to mention what happened and possibly spoil his season by causing him to worry unnecessarily about what might be typical rough boat handling in a boat yard.