Stolen VAT Certificate

[fliti]

Our car was broken into and a bag containing, among much else, our boat docs was stolen. That included the proof of VAT payment in the form of the original Invoice from the supplier. Unfortunately, the supplier of the boat (a 2003 Beneteau) was Dickies and when contacted, they informed they have disposed of files after 7 year statutory hold.I also heard they had gone under/changed hands. The broker who handled the sale has also gone into receivership so both obvious paper trails have gone cold. Has anyone managed to obtain a certificate of VAT payment other than through the original supplier or the broker and how is it done please?

 

[sailorman]

In the boot was it

 

[Tranona]

There is no other source if the original seller has not got a copy. The broker would not be any help either as he would have just passed the original on to you.

 

[Birdseye]

No. I think you're stuffed. Sorry.

Ways forward:

1/ Using a laser printer it would be easy enough to generate your own VAT invoice from Dickies and there is no one to say that it isnt the genuine article. I wouldnt hesitate to do this with the french authorities for example.
2/ a daisy chain of bills of sale would be useful and previous owners could maybe help.
3/ You might be having interesting discussions with your insurer if you feel the need to claim for loss in value of a boat that has become undocumented.
4/ do you think a £100 reward offered in the press for the no questions asked return of the document might help?

 

[gjgm]

Our car was broken into and a bag containing, among much else, our boat docs was stolen. That included the proof of VAT payment in the form of the original Invoice from the supplier. Unfortunately, the supplier of the boat (a 2003 Beneteau) was Dickies and when contacted, they informed they have disposed of files after 7 year statutory hold.I also heard they had gone under/changed hands. The broker who handled the sale has also gone into receivership so both obvious paper trails have gone cold. Has anyone managed to obtain a certificate of VAT payment other than through the original supplier or the broker and how is it done please?

The certificate only shows that VAT was paid and that point.. it doesnt show or mean that the boat is currently VAT paid. So, this whole certificate thing is a bit of a farce in that it is meaningless to HMRC, but seems to create a froth with boat owners.
The only thing you could have done that has favour is a certified copy, but that doesnt seem possible.
Your downside is, potentially, future buyers deem the boat to be worth less without the document. HMRC are likely to have as much interest in this as your TV vat document.
There has been the odd story re tricky Frenchmen, but in my experience they just want to see passports,your SSR docs and be comfortable you arent a big league smuggler.

 

[nimbusgb]

The Croats are a bit sticky on VAT certificates.

 

[fliti]

No. I think you're stuffed. Sorry.

Ways forward:

1/ Using a laser printer it would be easy enough to generate your own VAT invoice from Dickies and there is no one to say that it isnt the genuine article. I wouldnt hesitate to do this with the french authorities for example.
2/ a daisy chain of bills of sale would be useful and previous owners could maybe help.
3/ You might be having interesting discussions with your insurer if you feel the need to claim for loss in value of a boat that has become undocumented.
4/ do you think a £100 reward offered in the press for the no questions asked return of the document might help?

Unfortunately, the break-in happened in Naples so no chance ref point 4. Fortunately, I do have copies of bill of sale so point 2 covered. I also had no trouble getting a new SSR so nearly there. The brilliant idea was point 1. Just spent a pleasant hour with my faithful printers and managed to fool the wife, who is nobody's mug so thanks all round.

 

[tillergirl]

No. I think you're stuffed. Sorry.

Ways forward:

1/ Using a laser printer it would be easy enough to generate your own VAT invoice from Dickies and there is no one to say that it isnt the genuine article. I wouldnt hesitate to do this with the french authorities for example.
2/ a daisy chain of bills of sale would be useful and previous owners could maybe help.
3/ You might be having interesting discussions with your insurer if you feel the need to claim for loss in value of a boat that has become undocumented.
4/ do you think a £100 reward offered in the press for the no questions asked return of the document might help?

Really good idea!

1. Forgery
2. ok until you utter the forgery as part of the daisy chain
3. Attempted fraud - the value hasn't altered!
4. Reward, no questions asked is a criminal offence.

Err has anybody ever been asked for proof of VAT payment?

 

[fliti]

Really good idea!

1. Forgery
2. ok until you utter the forgery as part of the daisy chain
3. Attempted fraud - the value hasn't altered!
4. Reward, no questions asked is a criminal off

Err has anybody ever been asked for proof of VAT payment?

This is not helping. Birdseye was

 

[Biggles Wader]

This is not helping. Birdseye was

I beg to differ.Whatever you do you have now discussed it in public,which is what this forum is.There are many examples of unthinking comments made on the internet finding their way to courts as evidence.Dont underestimate it.

 

[DJE]

Err, I'm confused. What exactly is a "VAT Certificate" ?

 

[Daydream believer]

It seems to me that the sensible thing to do when buying the boat is to run of a few photo copies of the VAT receipt.
No one can tell they are photos if you then stick them in laminated folders. It just makes them look nice for the authorities.
By the way - the froggies asked to see mine once ( over the years i have had about 18 visits 14 of which occurred in one 6 month cruise to France) as did a particularly awkward Belgian customs officer. I seem to attract the b..ds

 

[Joker]

"
Err has anybody ever been asked for proof of VAT payment? "

I'm being pursued by Dutch customs on exactly that point. I have a Bill of Sale but no VAT invoice [the handover took place in Poland]. Unfortunately I am no longer on good terms with the original UK agents.

The Bill of Sale gives the agent's registered VAT number, but the Dutch are still demanding a copy of the original invoice.

 

[Tranona]

Err, I'm confused. What exactly is a "VAT Certificate" ?

A sloppy term which indicates a document that confirms VAT has been paid. There is, in fact, no such thing in the UK. The only evidence acceptable to HMRC is the original invoice from the builder/dealer showing the VAT payment. This would also be acceptable to other states.

Other states may have different mechanisms for confirmation of VAT payment for boats, usually linked to their registration system, so may indeed issue a "certificate" which officially confirms VAT status in addition to the commercial invoice.

 

[Gordonmc]

The only evidence acceptable to HMRC is the original invoice from the builder/dealer showing the VAT payment. This would also be acceptable to other states.

Not a certificate, but my proof of VAT status is a receipt from the Duane in Le Havre where the boat was when it transferred from the Canadian registry to UK SSR.
As the boat was built for a Canadian in the USA the bit of paper is important and I am reluctant to chance losing it or having it disappear, as the OP experienced.
How do you get over the requirement to produce originals?

 

[Tranona]

Not a certificate, but my proof of VAT status is a receipt from the Duane in Le Havre where the boat was when it transferred from the Canadian registry to UK SSR.
As the boat was built for a Canadian in the USA the bit of paper is important and I am reluctant to chance losing it or having it disappear, as the OP experienced.
How do you get over the requirement to produce originals?

Yes, that is an alternative, and I should have mentioned it. As with an invoice it is the original that is the evidence as customs do not keep a copy. Only applies of course to boats that are individually imported into the EU. It is not the transfer of registry that triggers the VAT but permanent import into the EU.

You are right to keep the original secure, but it might be useful to get a notarised copy as back up, although not sure whether that would be acceptable to customs if there was ever a query.