Sterling advanced regulator help

I don't know but the heatsink if fairly large as are the power transistors mounted to it. 25W, maybe? That is only an educated guess I don't have any design data for it, of course. It would need to be able to shunt the excess field current which, I suppose, could be a couple of amps?
 
It depends on the ambient temperature. Down here in Spain it gets quite warm and I measured an ambient in my battery box of 55C - not good and certainly they shouldn't be charged up at 14.5V at that temperature (which they were being). 14V is not so bad, and if the temperature is more moderate and the batteries are flooded (i.e. you can add water) then you might be fine.

However, if you fit an advanced regulator (Adverc, Sterling, etc.) you will get a better charge as the batteries will be equalised up at 14.3 or a little higher for a while and this improves their life. The voltage will also fall back, of course, which as you know is desirable.

If you can spare the cash you would certainly improve your installation if you fitted one.
 
Thanks Lemain, that's very helpful. Yes I can add water (bottle alongside the batteries!) and yes it is a bit cooler in the Bristol Channel. So I'll run with this for a while and then maybe try an advanced controller if I think it's needed.
 
It's in an awkward part of the engine room and not convenient to check right now but I bought it new in 2000 at the Jan Boat Show and it was AFAIK the original 'Advanced Regulator Controller' or something like that. A small blue box with a cheap aluminium lid held on by four PKs, the lid bends over the heatsink. In the lid are one or two plastic windows allowing you to see a few LEDs inside. Inside the box there is a jumper for the type of battery, a DIP switch to select the full charge time (in 30 min intervals). That's about all I can remember right now. I've re-installed it in the Nauticat having previously had it in the Centaur where it did an excellent job for a few years. My one is definitely the analogue version, not the digital.

By the way, the box is nowhere near watertight so I have run a good bead of silicone sealant around all he edges to prevent water ingress in case of a broken hose or seal in the engine room. Everything intended to be mounted adjacent to an engine should be IP65 or higher and this Sterling product fails miserably.

It was shortly after buying this controller that I was introduced to Charles Sterling, who answered the phone when I had a technical query. He was completely wrapped up in himself and clearly thought that he had powers of telepathy as he didn't want to actually listen to why I was calling - instead he told me what a wonderful product it was. Perhaps so, but a pointless phone call nevertheless /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I've heard say that all Sterling controllers now have pulse desulphators. See my other thread - there is a serious potential RFI issue with these desulphators and unless they can be disabled they could make it impossible to use certain equipment - MF and HF radio including weatherfax, maybe navtex and one poster reported that his solar controller is affected....I don't know the facts of the matter but people must check this before going ahead with these products if they include this technology.
 
Most new cars run 14.6 volt reg, some 15 volt, would you worry about driving your car for 12 hours ?
I still run the dynastart for engine battery and starting, also an additional alternator for system testing. If I ran 14.2 volt, I would not be worried.
As I tell everybody, see if you have a problem charging your batteries, if you do not have a problem, spend your money on what you need, if you have spend your money sorting it.

Brian
 
The pulse thing only works if you have sulphation, due to bad charging/ use of batteries. If you are charging to 14.6 volt , you do not need to run at all, as you have the required voltage to avoid sulphation. The pulse is a form of switch mode voltage boost, allowing you to raise a 13.6 volt ( for example ) charge to 14.6 volt. Funny thing, we introduced a pulsed maintainance charger, in the 90's, to provide a high voltage pulse to stop sulphation. Lost interest at the time, perhapes that was not a good idea !!.

Find the idea of droping alternator output by putting a shunt in output line interesting. A 100 amp alternator produces about 1400 watts @ 14 volt into a resitive load, thats a lot of power and heatsink. Had a look at Sterling's site but cannot finf any ref, bar controling output of the alternator via a DC / DC converter.


Brian
 
[ QUOTE ]
The pulse is a form of switch mode voltage boost, allowing you to raise a 13.6 volt ( for example ) charge to 14.6 volt.

[/ QUOTE ] No, it is not like that at all. Basically they produce a high current pulse at a prf of 1kHz. It is not a charging device, it is a pulsing device that works in the 10s of milliamps range, no more.

[ QUOTE ]
Find the idea of droping alternator output by putting a shunt in output line interesting. A 100 amp alternator produces about 1400 watts @ 14 volt into a resitive load, thats a lot of power and heatsink. Had a look at Sterling's site but cannot finf any ref, bar controling output of the alternator via a DC / DC converter.

[/ QUOTE ] Good grief, nobody would do that! The shunt is in the field. That's the way it works and is fairly clear from the Sterling instructions - the instructions are available as a download from their website though they don't spell it out - you have to know how these things work to see what is happening.
 
[/ QUOTE ] No, it is not like that at all. Basically they produce a high current pulse at a prf of 1kHz. It is not a charging device, it is a pulsing device that works in the 10s of milliamps range, no more.[ QUOTE ]


Thats a swtich mode step up converter, uses the pulses to gain the voltage,. It's the voltage that breaks down the sulphation, or that's there claim on there site.

Brian
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thats a swtich mode step up converter, uses the pulses to gain the voltage,. It's the voltage that breaks down the sulphation, or that's there claim on there site.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brian, I can't see it on their website under 'Advanced Alternator Regulator - digital'. But it is a terrible write-up anyway...it does not make it clear whether it can reduce the alternator output below the internal regulator's fixed setting which, of course, is at least 50% of the reason for fitting one if you motor for longer periods.

It doesn't make any sense, anyway. For the benefit of others who are not so technical, I will talk it through in some detail.... In an alternator you have two circuits. Firstly you have the output coils which feed a bridge rectifier and these are fixed. You can't put anything into the circuit to adjust the output because the currents are too high - nobody would ever do that and haven't (at least not since I started working on cars with a vintage of circa 1960 onwards). Instead, to control the output, you vary the 'field' coil which is wound on the rotor. The field coil is fed via brushes to the rotor and when the current is zero the output of the alternator is zero because there is no magnetic field in the generator; the more magnetic field you have, the higher the output and you vary the magnetic field by varying the field current.

The internal regulator of an alternator controls the field current to ensure that the alternator output is at a single set level of, usually, 14.3 to 14.8V (some older ones are between 13V and 14V). It controls the voltage by varying the field current - the field current at full alternator output is only about 2A even though the alternator output might be 80A or more.

Sterling and, I think, Adverc, put their controllers piggy-back over the alternator internal regulator and augment the field current to make the output higher and shunt off the excess field current to make the output lower. A change of around 0.5A in field current might change the output current by 50A, for example, so the control currents are manageable. The main disadvantage of this is that you have to dissipate (shunt) the excess field drive when the Sterling wants to reduce the voltage to, say, 13.6V when the alternator regulator is trying to make the output 14.6V. What happens it that the alternator regulator turns hard on trying (in vain) to overcome the Sterling which is shunting the current through itself and dissipating the energy in a heatsink. The loss of energy isn't high, though, and it utterly trivial compared with the overall scheme of things when running a marine diesel.

Quite a lot of advanced regulator manufacturers remove the internal alternator regulator from the circuit and replace its function altogether. Sterling say that theirs can be wired in this way (to do this the wiring changes inside the alternator are different) but the only benefit in doing this is to avoid dissipating the field current but the disadvantage is that having wired the internal regulator out of circuit, if your advanced regulator should fail you are stuck with no charging at all.

Coming back to the suggestion that they are using a switch mode converter to step up the voltage why would they do that? What you need to do is increase the field current and that doesn't need any more than a few volts! The pulsing devices (or at least one design does) use a ringing choke converter that does provide voltage spikes but what they are really generating is current spikes and on each pulse a determinate quantity of electricity in Joules is 'zapped' into the battery. The voltage is clamped by the battery and what is doing the work is the constant small pulses. I don't know how the battery physics works but that's how the electronic modules such as Magpulse work.

David
 
Quick answer as my breakfast awaits.

The rotor is feed from the field diodes, there is a regulator in the field suply line to the brushes, ( P ) or from the brushes to ground ( N ). This monitors the output volts, and when it goes above a set voltage, turns of the feed or stops sinking the load. By turning off the feed to the rotor it stops the output, thus the voltage falls, and the regulator cuts back in.

Ref switch mode, thats to set up a higher voltage spike to stop sulphation if the alternator output is low. Not related to alternator feed at all, it just generates a higher voltage spike on top of the alternator output.

Brian
 
Brian,
I hope you enjoyed your breakfast /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I have to do my own!

[ QUOTE ]
The rotor is feed from the field diodes, there is a regulator in the field suply line to the brushes, ( P ) or from the brushes to ground ( N ). This monitors the output volts, and when it goes above a set voltage, turns of the feed or stops sinking the load. By turning off the feed to the rotor it stops the output, thus the voltage falls, and the regulator cuts back in.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, though modern ones are linear so they don't cut in an out, as did the old automotive ones.

[ QUOTE ]
Ref switch mode, thats to set up a higher voltage spike to stop sulphation if the alternator output is low. Not related to alternator feed at all, it just generates a higher voltage spike on top of the alternator output.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what is being said....it doesn't explain where or what the 'switch mode' is.

David
 
Now were getting some detail, Id like to thank the previous respondents, the explainations have been most helpful and fascinating. I think i now have enough background to get the thing working.
 
[ QUOTE ]

As I tell everybody, see if you have a problem charging your batteries, if you do not have a problem, spend your money on what you need, if you have spend your money sorting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite agree with you about spending money unnecessarily. The problem is knowing whether or not I have a problem in fully charging the batteries? I wasn't happy that 13.9V was doing the job (at the end of a 10 hr motoring passage last year, the batteries still didn't seem "full". 14.15V should make a difference, but I guess one reason to fit an advanced controller is the peace of mind that all that can be done to optimise charging is being done! My assessment of state-of-charge of the batteries is based on voltage some 12 hours or so after charging. I'm looking for 12.65V at least and ideally 12.7+. Measuring SG of the electrolyte never seems to show full charge even after a long period on a mains charger (the batteries are 1-2 years old and not knowingly abused). Any ideas on determining state-of-charge more precisely would be welcome!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Measuring SG of the electrolyte never seems to show full charge even after a long period on a mains charger (the batteries are 1-2 years old and not knowingly abused). Any ideas on determining state-of-charge more precisely would be welcome!!

[/ QUOTE ]Measuring SG is the 'gold standard' for determining battery state of charge but you do need to follow the instructions (including temperature compensation) carefully. The only time SG fails is when the battery has lost fluid at some stage, boiled, or is in bad physical shape, and badly sulphated. You want your batteries to be finished off at higher than 14.15V if they are flooded lead acid (which I presume they are if you are doing an SG test).

If you have battery issues, then the things to target are wiring, sulphation (consider a Magpulse or similar) and advanced chargers. And never let your batteries be discharged below 50%. Lead acids don't like it as the plates change size, and material physically falls off, in particles, onto the bottom of the battery case. And they never jump back onto the plates again, either /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
[/ QUOTE ] Yes, though modern ones are linear so they don't cut in an out, as did the old automotive ones.[ QUOTE ]


They are also interfacing with the ECU, but I thought we were on the the simple end.



[/ QUOTE ]I don't understand what is being said....it doesn't explain where or what the 'switch mode' is.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have suplahation you are discharging to a high level, and / or not charging to an addiquate voltage. To breakdown sulphation you need a voltage around 14.6 volt. If you have a problem it's probably due to an alternator running a low voltage, if was reaching 14.6 volt you would not have a problem. Therfore assume you are regulating at 13.6 volt, or have blocking diodes , you need to increase voltage to 14.6 volt to breakdown sulphation. The easy way is to use a swtich mode type circuit to produce a 14.6 volt pulse, this pulse rides on top of the alternator charge voltage. It is this pulse voltage that breakdown sulphation.
If you have the charge voltage going to the required voltage, you do not need the pulse.

Brian
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you have sulphation you are discharging to a high level, and / or not charging to an addiquate voltage. To breakdown sulphation you need a voltage around 14.6 volt. If you have a problem it's probably due to an alternator running a low voltage, if was reaching 14.6 volt you would not have a problem. Therfore assume you are regulating at 13.6 volt, or have blocking diodes , you need to increase voltage to 14.6 volt to breakdown sulphation. The easy way is to use a swtich mode type circuit to produce a 14.6 volt pulse, this pulse rides on top of the alternator charge voltage. It is this pulse voltage that breakdown sulphation.
If you have the charge voltage going to the required voltage, you do not need the pulse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brian, is this your own personal theory because it isn't what the industry believes happens. I hasten to add that I don't mean this in a derogatory sense and I know that there are people who have deeply held beliefs about batteries that are not in accordance with accepted theory so you would not be alone in having your own ideas.

Conventionally, 'sulphation' is generally believed to be irreversible and it is caused mainly by over-discharging batteries and leaving them in a state of discharge. It is becoming accepted that high current pulses can reverse sulphation but not simply voltage spikes up to 14.6V.

The figure of 14.6V (nominal, 14.4 to 14.8 is the usually quoted figure) is for 'equalisation' of all the cells in the battery. Since a battery is made of a number of 2V cells in series, it is possible for one of the cells to never get fully charged and that ruins that cell - which ruins the whole battery. That's why you need to be sure that the battery has reached 14.6V for half an hour or more so you know that all the cells have taken a full charge.

It is important not to confuse sulphation with equalisation.

David
 
Lemain, it might be a bit late on this thread now, but just to say I've just fitted the Sterling Advanced Digital Regulator and in float mode it does not seem to reduce the voltage below the standard alternator regulator (which is around 14.2V). I have a switch in the Sterling field supply wire, which when off would default the alternator output to the inbuilt regulator. There is absolutely no change in float voltage when I do this, indicating that the Sterling unit cannot regulate below this value (or by an amazing coincidence both regulators are set the same!). Where did you read / learn that the Sterling unit actually shunts off some of the field current? I can't see that in the manual. Thanks
 
First, my unit is the original analogue version that I bought in 2000 or maybe 2001. I got the information that it controlled the voltage down from the LBS staff at that time and I spoke with Charles Sterling /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif But did it work? To be honest, I don't know because at the time I had a Centaur and the issue was undercharging, not overcharging and I did not have a DVM on the batteries anyway. It is supposed to be a three or four stage charger; how can it be that if all it does is to rush up to 14.6V and stay there? It is a nonsense. Unless the argument is that it rushes up to 14.6V and then falls back to whatever the alternator regulator is? Doesn't make sense and in any case, there is a voltage adjust pot on the analogue version.

One point - there is a time delay of multiples of 30mins and on the analogue version the sense lead has to reach the set voltage for 30, 60, 90,...minutes before it falls off. If your sense lead is not connected it will think that the voltage has not got there and will stay there indefinitely. You say that you have 'just' fitted it - have you waited to let the timer time out?

I have re-fitted mine but we are still in the marina /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif waiting for weather and I am not going to run the engine for an hour or so to find out - if it doesn't work then I will delve into my box of bits and re-design it. Certainly it should make the voltage fall off otherwise it is useless and in any case it would not need the big power transistors and heatsink.

Please let me know how you get on having checked the timing and sense lead issue as I would like to know if there is a potential problem.
 
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