Steering failure - Plan B

[Iain C]

When I rebuilt my Sabre 27 rudder i just put in a piece of carbon tube firmly laminated in place for just such an eventuality. I was fairly convinced that any fittings would probably just pull out. One line, two figure of eights, job done.

 

[Neeves]

I think you need to assume worst case(s) scenario. Not only might the steering mechanism fail but separately the rudder or shaft itself might be damaged, especially if you hit something unforgiving (and you might also damage the tube within which the shaft is 'encased' - which is why it needs to be within a watertight compartment).

Jonathan

 

[capnsensible]

Another vote for Hydrovane.

 

[geem]

Another vote for Hydrovane.

If you lose the steering to your rudder such that the rudder is flopping about how does a hydrovane help you?

 

[Kukri]

If you lose the steering to your rudder such that the rudder is flopping about how does a hydrovane help you?

It steers you. The Hydrovane "sales pitch" has always included the fact that it is a complete independent rudder with its own shaft and stock. You would need to do some sail trimming rather than locking the help off as one normally does but the Hydrovane should still cope.

 

[geem]

It steers you. The Hydrovane "sales pitch" has always included the fact that it is a complete independent rudder with its own shaft and stock. You would need to do some sail trimming rather than locking the help off as one normally does but the Hydrovane should still cope.

No way will it steer you with a rudder flopping about. The rudder on your boat is considersbly bigger than that on a hydrovane. If the rudder is still intact and moving around you will not be able to steer. If you can lock off the main rudder then it may be possible but I suspect difficult. I keep hearing of the wonders of Hydrovane but has anybody actually ever steered with a hydrovane after the complete loss of a rudder, a jammed rudder or one flopping about when a wire has snapped on the steering?

 

[lw395]

It was light airs. Flat seas. They were motoring. 1990s cruiser racer with narrow-ish chord keel and spade rudder. No turning moment from the rudder & no turning moment from the seas. So if the jury rigged rudder was going to work it'd have worked then. Took them three attempts even to line up for the marina entrance.

Remember that with modern designs the lateral resistance of the rudder is significant, so with no rudder it's going to be difficult to keep the boat going in a straight line even with decent sail trim, and virtually impossible taking into account seas and heeling. Maybe slightly easier for a long keeler.

'Lining up for the marina entrance' is quite precise steering required.
Motoring in light airs, I can imagine not much is going to work.
Although a steering oar can be quite effective, few boats actually want to go in a straight line under motor.
If I can sail my dinghy with the rudder off, a yacht should not be impossible in reasonable conditions.

Most of the time if the rudder fails on a yacht, 'plan B' should probably be 'anchor'.
Plan A would be 'drift'.

I would regard a jury rigged rudder as a means of making progress in the general direction desired, or away from danger.
It's never going to ba as good as the real thing, although you can row the stern across without moving forwards if you have a steering oar.

Nobody's mentioned bow thrusters yet.....

 

[Neeves]

Real boats have stern thrusters as well!

All you need are new deep pockets.

 

[sailorman]

Real boats have stern thrusters as well!

All you need are new deep pockets.

real yachts dont even need bow thrusters :sleeping:

 

[Neeves]

That's the difference between yachts and boats

 

[rogerthebodger]

The real issue is that you need several different ways to facilitate emergency steering depending on what has failed.

If the rudder is still attached some way to restore control over the movement of the rudder will be needed like an emergency tiller of rope attachment points.

It the whole rudder is lost than a replacement rudder will be needed either a secondary rudder like the hydrovane or windpilot pacific plus. There are also SOS rudders from windpilot and monitor.

I have a monitor that I am modifying it by adding a secondary rudder as I have hydraulic steering and need a secondary to work correctly.

I also have and emergency tiller and rope attachment points for all possibilities.

 

[Neeves]

The real issue is that you need several different ways to facilitate emergency steering depending on what has failed.

If the rudder is still attached some way to restore control over the movement of the rudder will be needed like an emergency tiller of rope attachment points.

It the whole rudder is lost than a replacement rudder will be needed either a secondary rudder like the hydrovane or windpilot pacific plus. There are also SOS rudders from windpilot and monitor.

I have a monitor that I am modifying it by adding a secondary rudder as I have hydraulic steering and need a secondary to work correctly.

I also have and emergency tiller and rope attachment points for all possibilities.

With specific variations for the individual yacht

+1

 

[geem]

We have a 44ft yacht. The rudder is mounted on a full skeg. The rudder shaft is 12 ft long from deck level to bottom of the blade. The rudder is supported by three bearings. The bronze bearing at the bottom of the skeg, the central bronze bearing 8 inches above the water line and the top bearing at deck level. The shaft is machined from a sold billet of 12 ft long 316 s/s 4 inch diameter. The central bush is 4 inch diameter with a grease gun attached for regular greasing. The shaft is stepped from its maximim diameter of 4 inch such that at deck level and bottom of skeg it is 2.5 inch diameter. At deck level a square is machined into the shaft to take the emergency tiller. The four tangs in the rudder are considerable and very strong. Am I worried about rudder failure? No.
When people say new boats are better than old boats they havent seen the construction standards in some old boats. Not all boats are the same. The reality is that nobody could afford a boat like this today. Rudders are now built very lightly from hollow tube with plastic bearings and no skeg. Take your choice. My boat was designed with all the plan B requirements it needs.

 

[Graham376]

Saw a boat not long ago with an outboard bracket on the transom to cope with engine or steering failure in reasonable conditions. Dinghy even with small outboard lashed alongside also works when calm.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Saw a boat not long ago with an outboard bracket on the transom to cope with engine or steering failure in reasonable conditions. Dinghy even with small outboard lashed alongside also works when calm.

This is my emergency engine mounting

With my self steering gear mounted on a stern gate in the background.

This was when I was designing my secondary rudder for my self steering gear

 

[KellysEye]

Looking at the picture your boat is a high quality build the chance of any tiller/rudder problems is likely to be nil.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Looking at the picture your boat is a high quality build the chance of any tiller/rudder problems is likely to be nil.

I agree but where I sail we must by law have and emergency tiller when the boat had wheel steering.

The secondary rudder is mainly due to the fact that having hydraulic steering the standard monitor does not work very well due to the slippage you can get with hydraulic steering.