Steelboats

[Brent Swain]

The video I posted showed a lightweight race boat being forcibly dragged off a beach after being pounded by Brazilian surf for a week. Not a breakwater in sight.
And despite a week of pounding, there was no damage to that boat. No hole in the hull. No structural damage. None.

Saw that picture, a tiny , super light boat.
A sealed tin can can survive weeks of pounding in big surf, with no real damage . A freighter breaks up in one tide, or less.
Yes, size does matter. What a tiny, super light boat survives, bigger boats don't. As they get bigger and heavier ,their strength to weight ratio declines drastically . I don't think many of us would like to cruise and live full time in a boat so tiny, and a fully loaded, plastic 36 footer, with all one's accumulated stuff aboard, would never survive what that one did. Hal Roth's solidly built Spencer 35 suffered serious damage in a far smaller swell .
One of mine survived 16 days pounding in big Baja surf, another 4 months on a Panama reef . A week is nothing to them.
When Trismus , a steel Joshua copy, blew on a Tuamotu reef in 1975 , Patrick , the owner abandoned her. After ten years ,the locals floated her off, and began using her to ship coconuts around the atoll. Patrick went missing without a trace ,crossing the Atlantic in a plastic boat.

 

[Brent Swain]

Hello again Brent you old plate warming waffler! Still going strong I see, well done.
Missed you in the Balboa yacht club wednesday night. I was on the solid well built and quick performance cruiser that had just completed another 4200 safe and steady miles. Saw literally hindreds of others on the tough durable and easy to maintain grp long distance vessels but only a couple of untrusty rustys.

Hope this finds you well and happy sailing to you.

The crew of Gringo would have found plastic far more "untrusty" than steel . The Sleavin family sure did. Then there are the Baileys , Callahan, Nigel Calder, the kid I met sunk by a whale in Baja, etc etc. The list goes on, and on, and on.
"Safe plastic" is only safe , until you hit something. "Seamanship" is leaving as little as possible to luck and chance, like a chance encounter with a whale , container or ship . Whale population is growing rapidly around here, and elsewhere. Lots of humpbacks, who have no sonar.
Yes, one can be lucky for a very long time. It can end suddenly and tragically ,too, and has.

Went to Mexico instead . Cheap but superb dental work, by a meticulous German dentist, for 1/10th of what it would have cost in Canada.
Yes still cruising in paradise. Warming up nicely here . Spring is sprunging!

 

[Brent Swain]

Can you please reference anywhere in these forums or in this thread where anyone has suggested doing exactly this? You say it’s been suggested ‘repeatedly’. Give a few examples. Good luck.

So do tell us of your solution, John, to a fire aboard, well out at sea, beyond help, when your extinguishers are empty, and the fire still burns, increasingly hotter ? Criticism should come with alternative solutions. What are yours John, and others?

 

[john_morris_uk]

So do tell us of your solution, John, to a fire aboard, well out at sea, beyond help, when your extinguishers are empty, and the fire still burns, increasingly hotter ? Criticism should come with alternative solutions. What are yours John, and others?

The last fire I had at sea, I put out with fire extinguishers.

I'm not so foolish as to think that sealing a well ventilated boat enough to put out a fire is as easy as you claim; I hope that others can see the foolishness of the claim that it's done easily too. I appreciate that if you do seal a steel boat it will put the fire out, but I absolutely and completely refute that a well ventilated boat is easy to seal enough to put a fire out in the way you suggest; I also know that you claim to have done it, but I also know that citing one or two examples of something happening doesn't completely prove anything in the way you claim it does. (Applies to several of your so called 'killer arguments'.)

The truth is that there are a lot of dreamers around who fantasise about living the good life. The only reason I've argued on this thread and others is to ensure that gullible people aren't taken in by some of the silly suggestions that are being made. I'm the first to argue that you don't have to be super rich to go to sea and cruise the oceans, but I'm also wary of bad advise being promoted that is sometimes not just bad but downright dangerous. Dreamers need a reality check and to be sold the dream in the way you keep trying to sell it is dishonest about safety amongst other things.

The truth is that contrary to your wild claims, the oceans aren't full of GRP boats that have sunk drowning their crews. You keep claiming multiple examples but I think everyone who reads this thread can see through your arguments so I'll not waste time or pixels arguing the toss any more.

The great sadness is that you seem to have some good ideas, but they're lost in the OTT style in which you argue your case. I think people have got your measure now so I'll leave it at that.

 

[rogerthebodger]

To me the problem with trying to put a fire out just by starving it from oxygen is that the fire is not cooled to remove the heat so if the sealed boat is opened and air/oxygen rushes in the fire can ignite in a backdraft with devastating results.

This is where a micro mist system comes into play by cooling and reducing the oxygen getting to the fire.

 

[Brent Swain]

To me the problem with trying to put a fire out just by starving it from oxygen is that the fire is not cooled to remove the heat so if the sealed boat is opened and air/oxygen rushes in the fire can ignite in a backdraft with devastating results.

This is where a micro mist system comes into play by cooling and reducing the oxygen getting to the fire.

Yes, you definitely have to give it time to cool. If you shut the oxygen off early, you don't get much heat, as the fire goes out quickly . But be on the safe side ,give it lots of time.

 

[Brent Swain]

The last fire I had at sea, I put out with fire extinguishers.

I'm not so foolish as to think that sealing a well ventilated boat enough to put out a fire is as easy as you claim; I hope that others can see the foolishness of the claim that it's done easily too. I appreciate that if you do seal a steel boat it will put the fire out, but I absolutely and completely refute that a well ventilated boat is easy to seal enough to put a fire out in the way you suggest; I also know that you claim to have done it, but I also know that citing one or two examples of something happening doesn't completely prove anything in the way you claim it does. (Applies to several of your so called 'killer arguments'.)
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Lemme see . Push 2-4 inch caps over two vents . 2 dead lights over 2 more, screw down a third one, and close the hatches . You say that is complicated? Takes a lot longer? For some maybe! Seems you are the problem there.
What does that leave to do? Again, you have the problem, not the boats. I am referring to normal people, who would have no mental challenges in doing that.
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The truth is that there are a lot of dreamers around who fantasise about living the good life. The only reason I've argued on this thread and others is to ensure that gullible people aren't taken in by some of the silly suggestions that are being made. I'm the first to argue that you don't have to be super rich to go to sea and cruise the oceans, but I'm also wary of bad advise being promoted that is sometimes not just bad but downright dangerous. Dreamers need a reality check and to be sold the dream in the way you keep trying to sell it is dishonest about safety amongst other things.
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Yes, I have been attacked for advocating such dangerous ideas as 3 ft high solid lifelines, aluminium hatches which can be sealed as tight as the lid on a pressure cooker, welded down 90 ton mooring bits, boat designs which have cruised over 350,000 miles of ocean, without a single serious structural problem at sea in over 40 years, and have survived 16 days pounding on a Baja beach in big surf , pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, blowing ashore in hurricane in the Mozambique channel , a single season passage thru the NW passage, etc etc while those advocating plastic boats say that is "advocating dangerous ideas."
So, can you be more specific as to what you call advocating dangerous ideas . What specifically are you talking about? Not advocating knee high , plastic coated wire lifelines ? Not advocating leaky plastic hatches or flimsy mooring cleats ?Boats with fig leaf rudders, which have the highest failure rate of any rudder designs ? Flimsy fragile plastic thru hulls on steel boats, instead of welded in stainless ones?
The best source of advice for dreamers, is people like me, who have lived the dream since my mid 20s, on a very low budget ,not people who have done very little or any actual living the dream.
As friends keep saying "Brent ,you are doing it, and have been for decades, while your critics mostly are not, and many never have, and never will."
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The truth is that contrary to your wild claims, the oceans aren't full of GRP boats that have sunk drowning their crews. You keep claiming multiple examples but I think everyone who reads this thread can see through your arguments so I'll not waste time or pixels arguing the toss any more.
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Another made up on the spot, straw man argument . I made no such claim, only that some do sink, and some take their crews with them, sometimes without a trace.
Are you claiming that NEVER happens?
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The great sadness is that you seem to have some good ideas, but they're lost in the OTT style in which you argue your case. I think people have got your measure now so I'll leave it at that.

The great sadness is some, like you, make up many arguments no one, certainly not I, make, smothering this thread, and undermining its usefulness, as a way to pass on info, and decades of hands on experience with the subject title of the thread. Check the face book discussions on metal boats , or the origamiboats site, to see how well it can go without trolls .
Seems the boats you have sailed were extremely complex, far more than need be, so you cant grasp the concept of any boat being simple and practical. Explains your negative experience on maintenance of steel boats. You just did it on a poorly designed and detailed boat. Post some pictures, and we can tell you where it was wrong.

 

[Brent Swain]

There is often extremely high resistance to any new ideas , no matter how impractical old, standard ways of doing things may be.
One example is the doctor who, in 1848, suggested that doctors should wash their hands after handing cadavers, before delivering babies. He was jeered at ,black listed and ridiculed to his grave.
I just experienced another example. After years of seeing boxers in agony, after taking low blows, I made up a foul protector which eliminates any consequences from low blows, something that standard foul protectors are completely useless at doing. They are mostly soft, flexible material, which serves no purpose. The pelvis being hard and inflexible, means that there is no reason for the protector to be flexible. So I made one out of high density poly sheet . That , and a big enough cup on the bottom, to make sure the pelvis, instead of the sensitive parts, takes any impact, made them prevent any injury from any blows. Showed this to a boxing instructor, and he walked away. Better to take the excruciating pain of a low blow, than to wear something not stylish? Sadly, the human brain sometimes thinks that way, and hasn't evolved since the 1840s, and before.
Same kind of thinking keeps people paying for over priced gear, and boats ,suspicious of what has enabled others to get off the treadmill, and cruise much earlier, for much longer..
It continues the same abysmal mistakes as teak deck overlays, thru bolted thru an otherwise watertight plastic or steel deck, wood trim on the outside of a boat, also involving holes thru an other wise watertight deck and cabin, wooden hatches , etc etc the list of such foolishness goes on and on .

 

[Brent Swain]

John , can you answer the "killer questions?
1. If shutting of the air supply isn't good enough for you ,what would you suggest for a fire in mid ocean, with your fire extinguishers emptied and the fire still going?
2. What caused your steel boat circumnavigating experience to be so negative? Wood on the outside ? .Complex bits done in mild steel, instead of stainless? Lack of stainless weld and trim on wear spots? Lack of adequate epoxy build up inside and out? Lack of clean enough steel to put the epoxy build up on?
I'm sure if you did the fibreglass equivalent , circumnavigating in a plastic boat, built entirely with a chopper gun, you wouldn't have much positive to say about plastic boats.
3. Have you ever experienced cruising in a small , simple, practical steel boat, with none of the above common mistakes? If not, then you know absolutely nothing about that experience, or subject .
Sounds like the only steel boat you have cruised in was horrendously complex, and thus assume they all are. Nothing could be further from the truth. Your assumptions are based on falsehoods, making your advice ,based on such falsehoods, irrelevant.

 

[Fossil]

Almost... nearly..... soon...… this weary old thread will drag itself over the "ton" of pages and can then be laid decently to rest. To (I'm sure) no-one's regret - except one. Would anyone else like to contribute anything irrelevant and nothing to do with a sensible choice of hull material for your next boat, just so this can happen?

 

[rotrax]

Not me-I said I'm out. But, as before, I was telling porkies.

Brents fire was an insignificant puff, caused by poor design and build. Although, at the time I suspect his arsehole was puckering like a rosette!

He addmitted on a previous thread that he was bashing upwind under engine, probably full throttle.

He had a dry exhaust, so full exhaust gas tempreture without any cooling water injected in.

I wont comment on his welding, but it has been seen and commented on before.

There was a leak in the exhaust pipe which set fire to some nearby wood.

First, piss poor choice of exhaust for a boat. Any engine at full power and load will have the first couple of feet glowing red hot. I have many years of chassis dynomometer testing under my belt, so I know beyond any doubt.

Of course dry exhausts are used safely on thousands of boats-canal narrowboats for example.

But nothing flamable is put anywhere near the exhaust. Brent had timber near enough to catch fire when he got a pinhole in his pipe.

I am very familiar with canal boat dry exhausts and stove outlet pipe insallation. Brent did it badly wrong.

Not only is his mechanical sympathy such that he did not hear the escaping gas from a poorly designed and fabricated dry exhaust, he is trying to sucker us in that he had a serious fire when it appears to have been just some timber in the engine room burning.

As I said previously what was timber doing there anyway?

As his initials suggest, he is a Bull $H1tter par exellence. He expects everyone to accept he is gods gift to steel boatbuilding and will not entertain that any other views are worth a light.

I know people in BC. One is closely involved with the marine industry. He has asked about-it took sometime as the "Snowbirds" are only just returning.

Brents fire just involved some timber set alight by an exhaust leak, confirmed from BC yesterday.

Serious enough, but self inflicted and easily avoided with good design and constuction.

IMHO, of course!

Brent will no doubt be back with a load of tosh, and I am sure that if we dont reply to him-as happened when he put his oar in on the racing and design forum-he will go away.

He does go on a bit, but it wont be the same if he is only talking to himself.................................

 

[newtothis]

Almost... nearly..... soon...… this weary old thread will drag itself over the "ton" of pages and can then be laid decently to rest.

I'm using the 100 posts to a page layout, so I'm only up to 10 pages. But I'm pretty sure Brent can keep up the BS for another 90, reiterating the same three examples. If I were him, I'd just write a little script that banged out "Sleavins, Baja lee shore, plastic marina queens, seal off the oxygen, rubber duckies" at random intervals in reply to any post on here. It wouldn't be any more or less intelligible than most of his posts here.

 

[bbg]

John , can you answer the "killer questions?
1. If shutting of the air supply isn't good enough for you ,what would you suggest for a fire in mid ocean, with your fire extinguishers emptied and the fire still going?
2. What caused your steel boat circumnavigating experience to be so negative? Wood on the outside ? .Complex bits done in mild steel, instead of stainless? Lack of stainless weld and trim on wear spots? Lack of adequate epoxy build up inside and out? Lack of clean enough steel to put the epoxy build up on?
3. Have you ever experienced cruising in a small , simple, practical steel boat, with none of the above common mistakes? If not, then you know absolutely nothing about that experience .
Sounds like the only steel boat you have cruised in was horrendously complex, and thus assume they all are.. Nothing could be further from the truth. Your assumptions are based on falsehoods, making your advice ,based on such falsehoods, irrelevant.

How many times have you extinguished a fire at sea by closing the hatches?

 

[dom]

How many times have you extinguished a fire at sea by closing the hatches?

Best approach is to park-up on a handy reef and call the local Fire Department.

And the locals can be very helpful too, one lot gave me a free tank of fuel and the secret co-ordinates of an island paradise some 5500nm away !!

 

[Brent Swain]

How many times have you extinguished a fire at sea by closing the hatches?

Once, burning wood and spray foam . Fire went out quickly. A friend did the same thing , on a steel 34 ft Saugeen witch . 2 ft by 2 ft area of foam and plywood burning, form an oil stove 12 with 35 f gallons of diesel on the floor,, and wooden hatches and plastic vents open. Fire went out quickly due to lack of air.
What is your solution?
None ?
Abandon ship, and watch her burn ? That is what I thought!
I haven't sailed into Vancouver in decades.
So who's to confirm anything there ?
Only a liar

 

[Brent Swain]

My dry exhaust lasted 30 years with no problem.
A diesel mechanic on metalboatsociety.org said "If everyone went dry exhaust and keel cooling, us diesel mechanics would all be out of work."
So go ahead and inject water , to keep them employed, doing repairs, of the resulting damage.
LOL
I met a boat in Tonga ("Carmelle") in 2003, which had gone thru 2 diesels since 96, due to water cooled exhaust corrosion. She now has a dry exhaust.
You don't think my ways of doing things are true .So go ahead and do it the other way, taking a year to get a hull together, rather than 2 days, or spend $250 K on a bare hull and deck ,instead of $17K. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy!
LOL
One critic ,Aussie Pete Wiley , under an alias on BD.net ,chose a Colvin Saugeen witch, and ended up taking years to do what I get done in a few days.
Now he claims that boat, with a foot less freeboard, a foot less waterline beam and 12 ft wasted on cockpit, is roomier.
Couldn't happen to a nicer guy!
LOL
Great source of advise, for guys like you! You too can get those kinds of results.
LOL

 

[Brent Swain]

I just found my galley sink drain plugged by a fat burger.
Tried the bottle brush, with no luck, Tried a rod , still no luck Tried hot water and paint remover, still no luck.
What worked|? A piece of 1/4inch, 1x19 rigging wire with a small eye on the end. Sure glad the pipe was relatively straight. I'd hate to think of what I would have to deal with, with a more complex drainpipe, something to think about when plumbing a boat.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

 

[lpdsn]

I just found my galley sink drain plugged by a fat burger.
Tried the bottle brush, with no luck, Tried a rod , still no luck Tried hot water and paint remover, still no luck.
What worked|? A piece of 1/4inch, 1x19 rigging wire with a small eye on the end. Sure glad the pipe was relatively straight. I'd hate to think of what I would have to deal with, with a more complex drainpipe, something to think about when plumbing a boat.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

Couldn't you just have got the fat burger to unplug it himself?

 

[capnsensible]

Put a mesh over the pipe so fat burgers can't fall down the pipe. Simple.

Sitting about waiting on your dumb bum waiting for a fire to put itself out is just daft. Attack the source, it's not like you haven't got gazzilions of gallons next door.

And yes, I have had extensive training on fighting fires at sea, above and below the waves.

You let me down with those two, Brett. Don't suppose you will stop trying to convince hundreds of thousands of people you are right, but hey, we know don't we.

 

[jordanbasset]

Put a mesh over the pipe so fat burgers can't fall down the pipe. Simple.

Agree, blinking obvious, much better to prevent a problem rather than solve one