Steelboats

[Brent Swain]

It was a factual comparison.

The simple steel Hartley IS like camping on water whereas the IP is as comfortable as home.

The price difference, to some extent, supports this fact.

NEVER judge the value of anything by it's price tag. I know guy who made his living for years by fixing up and selling old boats. If one had little interest, he would double the price tag ,and it would then sell quickly, to someone who judges value by the price tag. That is an old used cars salesmen's trick. People die, and their survivors often have no interest in boats. Some are forced to sell quickly, due to sudden health problems, or financial problems .That has nothing to do with the quality of the boat. To sell it quickly, they often low ball the price. Pricing it too low, often makes it harder to sell quickly, due to too many people judging quality by the price tag. Could be super deals. Yes, they do exist!

Some, when referring to 'Quality "in a boat, confuse functional quality with cosmetic quality. Often ,they are polar opposites. A teak deck, hatches, and teak trim are the opposite of functional, as is a huge, wide hardwood floor in a sailing vessel, for the sake of cosmetics. Hiding an engine and equipment out of sight may be great for cosmetic quality, but a poor choice for easy access, and thus the opposite of functional quality. Ditto dangerously low lifelines , teak handrails, excessive complexity in a boat, the list goes on and on. Plastic thru hulls may look pretty, but are dangerously fragile. Ditto a lot of yottie gear. This kind of functional quality doesn't necessarily add much, if anything to the cost of boat ,but can make a boat costing far less, a much better choice, and thus a much better boat overall, than those which favour cosmetic quality over functional quality . Get the logic right, and a good boat can be inexpensive .Get the logic wrong, and you have a piece of crap, no matter how much money you throw at her.
I see a lot of very expensive boats with fragile plastic thru hulls, abysmal lack of easy access to engine ,wiring, plumbing etc etc. Many far cheaper boats are far superior , in this regard, on things which really matter.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

To be comfortable in cold latitudes ,a boat of any material needs insulation, of which most stock boats have none. An uninsulated plastic boat or an uninsulated steel boat are very wet and uncomfortable. Both will drip non stop condensation, when being lived aboard. Friends living on stock plastic boats here are doing everything they can to insulate. First ,they are trying to seal all the inevitable deck leaks you get from having to bolt everything down on a plastic boat, a problem to you don't have with welded down fittings on a steel boat. Most have rotted out balsa cores to deal with. On your side of the pond ,you have greatly reduced the deck leak problem, since the 70s, by raising the deck under fittings ,so water doesn't sit against the bedding. Sadly few, if any ,plastic boat builders here, have caught onto that trick.
Then they spray foam. Even foam cores don't work as well as spray foam. Any where the core is missing , you get serious condensation. Some just go ahead and spray foam ,core or no core, and live very comfortably , as a result. A good airtight woodstove, standard on most liveaboards around here, dries things out quickly, and keeps things super dry.
A properly insulted $4K boat with no deck leaks and a good wood stove, is far more comfortable than any $300K boat without. BTUs don't read the price tag, to decide how they behave.

Brent, do you have any experience or views regarding Mascoat DTM which is advocated by Michael Kasten as being preferable to sprayed foam?

 

[rotrax]

NEVER judge the value of anything by it's price tag. I know guy who made his living for years by fixing up and selling old boats. If one had little interest, he would double the price tag ,and it would then sell quickly, to someone who judges value by the price tag. That is an old used cars salesmen's trick. People die, and their survivors often have no interest in boats. Some are forced to sell quickly, due to sudden health problems, or financial problems .That has nothing to do with the quality of the boat. To sell it quickly, they often low ball the price. Pricing it too low, often makes it harder to sell quickly, due to too many people judging quality by the price tag. Could be super deals. Yes, they do exist!

Yes BS, but as you say, he made his money buying and selling OLD boats.

I have something outside his, and your, experience, a newish boat.

And it is a high quality boat, it cost $410,000 US Dollars when delivered to the guy I bought it from. It had had little use and only 259 hours on the Yanmar 110HP Turbo Diesel when I bought it 4 seasons ago. It is 10 years old now, but has covered 13,500 NM in my ownership and another 650 engine hours. It is as comfortable as living at home with the benifit of a sea view each day.

You also must not fall into the trap of rubbishing something because it would not meet your exacting requirements-it may very well be the answer to a maidens dream for someone else.

I have a great sense of Dejavu-is this thread new-or have we heard all BS's stuff before...............

 

[GHA]

Brent, do you have any experience or views regarding Mascoat DTM which is advocated by Michael Kasten as being preferable to sprayed foam?

Bump.

Also interested in mascoat.

 

[Brent Swain]

Brent, do you have any experience or views regarding Mascoat DTM which is advocated by Michael Kasten as being preferable to sprayed foam?

I know nothing about it. Can you describe it for us.

 

[Brent Swain]

Yes BS, but as you say, he made his money buying and selling OLD boats.

I have something outside his, and your, experience, a newish boat.

And it is a high quality boat, it cost $410,000 US Dollars when delivered to the guy I bought it from. It had had little use and only 259 hours on the Yanmar 110HP Turbo Diesel when I bought it 4 seasons ago. It is 10 years old now, but has covered 13,500 NM in my ownership and another 650 engine hours. It is as comfortable as living at home with the benifit of a sea view each day.

You also must not fall into the trap of rubbishing something because it would not meet your exacting requirements-it may very well be the answer to a maidens dream for someone else.

I have a great sense of Dejavu-is this thread new-or have we heard all BS's stuff before...............

The point I am making is price is no way to judge function.Get the logic wrong have a piece of crap no matter how much money you throw at a boat. Get it right and you can have an excellent boat for very little money.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

I know nothing about it. Can you describe it for us.

Mascoat DTM is an anti-condensation coating that can be painted on over epoxy. See this article:

http://www.kastenmarine.com/corrosion.htm

 

[rotrax]

The point I am making is price is no way to judge function.Get the logic wrong have a piece of crap no matter how much money you throw at a boat. Get it right and you can have an excellent boat for very little money.

Then why use a long winded load of bolleux to tell us something we are all inteligent enought to know?

I have two very excellent boats, the steel Hartley, fully equiped for cruising and liveaboard cost $8000 NZ. £4,000 Sterling four years ago.

The Island Packet SP Cruiser was much more costly, but was certainly not expensive for a boat of its age and quality.

Both were the price I was prepared to pay and I got exactly what I expected. No dissapointments.

A truism I believe in, confirmed by over 50 years of wheeling and dealing is that anything you wish to sell is only worth what you can get for it.

I am sure you find the same........................

 

[Daydream believer]

You only have direct experience of your sailing area, with relativly few boats in use, and a short season. You perhaps dont realise just how many yachts-GRP yachts at that-are in use 12 months of the year in the UK. Sail Training vessels with students doing RYA courses are going 24/7/365 round here-and, AFAIK, all use GRP boats. (Quote)
I cruise year round, as do many of my clients ,and have done 9 Pacific crossings, and cruised all the South Pacific islands which interested me . I have lost count of how many of my boats have been built ,but I have put together over 3 dozen of them, as have others . I roughly estimate as many as 200. I have cruised average 11 months a year ,or more ( not a short season) for the last 40 years. Many of my clients do the same. 4 have circumnavigated .We only see a lot of plastic boats leave the marina for 3 months a year around here.
So much for your "limited ,part time" theory!

You have built 40 boats( quoted in one of your other posts, not this one, do not know what happened to the other 4- did they sink?) in 40 years & you claim to have averaged 11 months sailing for the last 40 years.
Wow!! How many months do you have in your typical year??

 

[Brent Swain]

Mascoat DTM is an anti-condensation coating that can be painted on over epoxy. See this article:

http://www.kastenmarine.com/corrosion.htm

Read it . Good info on some points and wrong on others. Very good point on the need to epoxy before insulating . Not doing so costs far to many steel boats, which could have gone on for decades, had they been properly epoxied inside.
My boat used wheelabraded steel with zinc primer on ,34 years ago. It has never been sand blasted , no problems. Cold galvanizing zinc primer simply doesn't chip, and once you prime it , the surface of the zinc is the same , sandblasting or no sandblasting. A slightly rougher surface below the zinc makes no difference whatsoever, as the zinc primer fills it in.
My spray foam has no odour whatsoever, after 34 years of f living aboard. Yes, it would be a problem with a smoker, as would anything else in the interior. Simple solution. Don't smoke. Many smokers leave their homes today, to smoke outside.
60 mils of mascoat or anything else, is a pretty slim excuse for insulation, in these winters.
Yes, spray foam can burn ,but a friend who had a raging fire on board, said the foam stopped burning, cold, where it met cheap latex paint. Nothing fancy, just recycling depot free stuff. As I have pointed out, a fire on a steel boat can be stopped very quickly, by sealing the boat airtight. No, fires can't keep burning without air, a lot of air. I have seen nothing as good as, nor an adequate substitute for ,spray foam, to make a steel boat liveable in a cold climate. It makes a huge difference in comfort level , one I would not care to live without. Boats around here have tried many alternatives like mascoat, and all have eventually spray foamed.

If you check Kasten's website, on building methods , you will see he claims that my origami building methods cant be used for decks, cabins, cockpits keels, rudders, wheelhouses, and skegs , only for the hull. If you check the origamiboats site photos section, and Alex's video, along with other sites, online, you will see origami methods being used for all the above, as we have been doing since 1980. I pointed this out to Kasten many years ago, but he continues to keep disinformation, and to deliberately mislead, on his website. When a friend was organizing the Metal Boat Society annual gathering , she asked Kasten if he would be there.
Kasten asked if I would be there.
She said "Maybe."
Kasten said there was no way he would be there, if I might show up. Seems he has zero confidence in his arguments holding up in a balanced debate, with someone with decades of hands on steel boat building ,ocean crossing , living aboard and maintaining experience. His falsehoods would be quickly revealed, and his 'Expert" cover blown. He obviously knows that.
Getting all your advice from someone who has been a crusader against innovation, progressive ideas, and advancements in steel boat building methods, can add years to your boat building project , for zero benefit, as can paying him for any advice.
Kasten makes some good points, and some naive points. Makes me wonder how much cold climate , steel boat living aboard he has had. Ask him.
I have seen nothing as good as spray foam , yet.

 

[Brent Swain]

You have built 40 boats( quoted in one of your other posts, not this one, do not know what happened to the other 4- did they sink?) in 40 years & you claim to have averaged 11 months sailing for the last 40 years.
Wow!! How many months do you have in your typical year??

i have put together38 boats. I do a 36 ft shell ,hull, decks, cabin cockpit , keel rudder and skeg in 100 hours, working mostly alone, much less time with an owner who knows a bit of metal work. i did a 36 shell for a farmer who was able to do a lot .Took me 40 hours to get that shell together. I'd just mark plate out and throw it on the ground. While he cut and ground it , I marked the next piece. Some jobs are like that. Most owners learn metal working on the job. Some have gone on to be qualified tradesmen in the process.

 

[Brent Swain]

Then why use a long winded load of bolleux to tell us something we are all inteligent enought to know?

I have two very excellent boats, the steel Hartley, fully equiped for cruising and liveaboard cost $8000 NZ. £4,000 Sterling four years ago.

The Island Packet SP Cruiser was much more costly, but was certainly not expensive for a boat of its age and quality.

Both were the price I was prepared to pay and I got exactly what I expected. No dissapointments.

A truism I believe in, confirmed by over 50 years of wheeling and dealing is that anything you wish to sell is only worth what you can get for it.

I am sure you find the same........................

Many mistake resale value for resale price.Resale price is what you can get for her; resale value is the difference between what you can get for her ,and what she cost you in the first place. My last boat sold for over 4 times what I had into her (to a happy owner). Then there is the million dollar 37 ft carbon cutter.Who is going to spend a million dollars on any used 37 footer, regardless of what she is made of. So don't make the mistake of spending an extra $40K to increase the resale price by $20 K ,a common mistake on home built boats. Keep the price low, and you stand a far better chance of getting your money back ,or not losing as much. Good logic, instead of throwing more money, will also get you a much better boat for far less.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

Read it . Good info on some points and wrong on others. Very good point on the need to epoxy before insulating . Not doing so costs far to many steel boats, which could have gone on for decades, had they been properly epoxied inside.
My boat used wheelabraded steel with zinc primer on ,34 years ago. It has never been sand blasted , no problems. Cold galvanizing zinc primer simply doesn't chip, and once you prime it , the surface of the zinc is the same , sandblasting or no sandblasting. A slightly rougher surface below the zinc makes no difference whatsoever, as the zinc primer fills it in.
My spray foam has no odour whatsoever, after 34 years of f living aboard. Yes, it would be a problem with a smoker, as would anything else in the interior. Simple solution. Don't smoke. Many smokers leave their homes today, to smoke outside.
60 mils of mascoat or anything else, is a pretty slim excuse for insulation, in these winters.
Yes, spray foam can burn ,but a friend who had a raging fire on board, said the foam stopped burning, cold, where it met cheap latex paint. Nothing fancy, just recycling depot free stuff. As I have pointed out, a fire on a steel boat can be stopped very quickly, by sealing the boat airtight. No, fires can't keep burning without air, a lot of air. I have seen nothing as good as, nor an adequate substitute for ,spray foam, to make a steel boat liveable in a cold climate. It makes a huge difference in comfort level , one I would not care to live without. Boats around here have tried many alternatives like mascoat, and all have eventually spray foamed.

If you check Kasten's website, on building methods , you will see he claims that my origami building methods cant be used for decks, cabins, cockpits keels, rudders, wheelhouses, and skegs , only for the hull. If you check the origamiboats site photos section, and Alex's video, along with other sites, online, you will see origami methods being used for all the above, as we have been doing since 1980. I pointed this out to Kasten many years ago, but he continues to keep disinformation, and to deliberately mislead, on his website. When a friend was organizing the Metal Boat Society annual gathering , she asked Kasten if he would be there.
Kasten asked if I would be there.
She said "Maybe."
Kasten said there was no way he would be there, if I might show up. Seems he has zero confidence in his arguments holding up in a balanced debate, with someone with decades of hands on steel boat building ,ocean crossing , living aboard and maintaining experience. His falsehoods would be quickly revealed, and his 'Expert" cover blown. He obviously knows that.
Getting all your advice from someone who has been a crusader against innovation, progressive ideas, and advancements in steel boat building methods, can add years to your boat building project , for zero benefit, as can paying him for any advice.
Kasten makes some good points, and some naive points. Makes me wonder how much cold climate , steel boat living aboard he has had. Ask him.
I have seen nothing as good as spray foam , yet.

Thanks very much for this Brent. 60 mils seemed a bit thin to me too. I suppose it depends where you live.

 

[Brent Swain]

Thanks very much for this Brent. 60 mils seemed a bit thin to me too. I suppose it depends where you live.

Several years ago I heard about a ceramic addative which one could add to paint, to make it a super insulator, with some ridiculous claims of effectiveness. I mixed some with epoxy, and put it in some 4 inch stainless vents behind my fore hatch, which used to rain condensation.It stopped the condensation dead ; until I stated cooking and canning. Then it rained condensation. I found some 1mm thick closed cell foam, which I stuck in them, which stopped the condensation dead, even when cooking or canning. You could put boiling water in a styrofoam cup ,and hold the outside, which will be slightly warm. That's one hell of an effective insulator, given the thicknes of the cup and the temperature difference.You can then try any "super insulator" on a tin cup, with the same experiment ,for a comparison.

Ask Kasten of he has spent a winter living on his own steel boat, with the insulation he advocates. The closed cell neoprene he advocates, is extremely expensive. Beware of advocates who make no consideration of your pocket book , and cruising funds.

 

[A1Sailor]

Several years ago I heard about a ceramic addative which one could add to paint, to make it a super insulator, with some ridiculous claims of effectiveness. I mixed some with epoxy, and put it in some 4 inch stainless vents behind my fore hatch, which used to rain condensation.It stopped the condensation dead ; until I stated cooking and canning. Then it rained condensation. I found some 1mm thick closed cell foam, which I stuck in them, which stopped the condensation dead, even when cooking or canning. You could put boiling water in a styrofoam cup ,and hold the outside, which will be slightly warm. That's one hell of an effective insulator, given the thicknes of the cup and the temperature difference.You can then try any "super insulator" on a tin cup, with the same experiment ,for a comparison.

Ask Kasten of he has spent a winter living on his own steel boat, with the insulation he advocates. The closed cell neoprene he advocates, is extremely expensive. Beware of advocates who make no consideration of your pocket book , and cruising funds.

1mm seems awfully thin. Do you really mean 1mm?

 

[Brent Swain]

1mm seems awfully thin. Do you really mean 1mm?

Yes, roughly 1mm. It was very thin.

 

[rotrax]

Many mistake resale value for resale price.Resale price is what you can get for her; resale value is the difference between what you can get for her ,and what she cost you in the first place. My last boat sold for over 4 times what I had into her (to a happy owner). Then there is the million dollar 37 ft carbon cutter.Who is going to spend a million dollars on any used 37 footer, regardless of what she is made of. So don't make the mistake of spending an extra $40K to increase the resale price by $20 K ,a common mistake on home built boats. Keep the price low, and you stand a far better chance of getting your money back ,or not losing as much. Good logic, instead of throwing more money, will also get you a much better boat for far less.

Again BS, why this information?

If you read, look, mark and inwardly digest most contributors posts on this thread you can come to no other conclusion that they are experienced in sailing and worldly wide matters. The above info is something we all know.

Also, you appear to judge other sailing centres by the backwater that you sail in.

There are very few homebuilt boats in the UK by comparison to factory finished ones. Your advice is therefore pretty irelevant to 99.9% of the members of this forum.

There are plenty of million dollar race boats in the Solent, which as you must be aware is one of the racing hotspots of the world.

If someone thinks your million dollar carbon cutter can cut it as a raceboat or fast cruiser it will be sold.

Like the boats you build, it all depends how good it is and what someone is prepared to pay.

As I said before, ANYTHING you wish to sell is only worth what you can get for it.

The price achieved is the resale value-any profit or loss is irrelevant.

 

[Daydream believer]

i have put together38 boats. I do a 36 ft shell ,hull, decks, cabin cockpit , keel rudder and skeg in 100 hours, working mostly alone, much less time with an owner who knows a bit of metal work. i did a 36 shell for a farmer who was able to do a lot .Took me 40 hours to get that shell together. I'd just mark plate out and throw it on the ground. While he cut and ground it , I marked the next piece. Some jobs are like that. Most owners learn metal working on the job. Some have gone on to be qualified tradesmen in the process.

Some typical tasks
Agree the work & a price & where it is to be done & design with the new owner, Organise the construction area. Buy the materials & get them delivered. Set out the steel, cut it to shape, set up the jigs to get an even shape. Lift parts in to place, Steel is not light nor are the tools.
Get the engine details sorted & lifted in to place. Get the electrics sorted get bulkheads positioned.
Sorry Brent, your assertions just do not add up.
I really find it difficult to believe, as I am sure others on the forum will, once they start breaking down the operations involved.
Plus, when one looks at the state of your welds in a previous thread, I would expect even the simple welding tasks to take a long time due to poor quality work, requiring repeated over welding & unnecessary grinding etc to hide the bodging.
Try another story.

 

[rotrax]

Some typical tasks
Agree the work & a price & where it is to be done & design with the new owner, Organise the construction area. Buy the materials & get them delivered. Set out the steel, cut it to shape, set up the jigs to get an even shape. Lift parts in to place, Steel is not light nor are the tools.
Get the engine details sorted & lifted in to place. Get the electrics sorted get bulkheads positioned.
Sorry Brent, your assertions just do not add up.
I really find it difficult to believe, as I am sure others on the forum will, once they start breaking down the operations involved.
Plus, when one looks at the state of your welds in a previous thread, I would expect even the simple welding tasks to take a long time due to poor quality work, requiring repeated over welding & unnecessary grinding etc to hide the bodging.
Try another story.

He can also build a useable block for pennies using aluminium from a scrapheap and a plastic cutting board in less time you can say the above.

I know he can-he told me......................................

 

[coenvanwyk]

I also read a few years ago that you could mix ceramic beads into epoxy paint as insulation. Someone claimed you could hold a cutting torch flame to one side of a 3mm plate and your hand to the other. Me, I thought the epoxy would burn... Anyway, when I came to insulating I heard that this would be a no-no, and I could not find ceramic beads anyway, so I used plastic wool battens and aluminised bubble plastic. I will report when I get to Cape Horn...