Steelboats

[SlowlyButSurely]

No. Not a cruising boat for First Mate and I.

It requires shore power to work the fridge, its really only a powered coolbox on 12v. It is slow, turns and tacks slowly and has vertical steps to access the accommodation, a small cockpit with tiller steering and no autopilot. It is underpowered with a Bukh DV20.

Compared to our GRP motorsailer it is not in the same league. By comparison it is camping on water.

All the shortcomings could be addressed with time and money, but First Mate and I have physical shortcomings due to worn out bodies which mean that our GRP boat, an Island Packet SP Cruiser fitted with an 8KW Genset and extra 40 litre freezer compartment, walk round bed and easy on/off when alongside is the ideal boat for us.

Apart from the rust mentioned earlier, the Hartley is fine. Dry inside, all internal surfaces were covered with what appears to be black bitumastic paint after build in 1986. The bilge only gets a bit of rainwater from the leaky front hatch. It is basically a sound, simple and strong boat, but I dont think we shall be going blue water in her.

I have agreed with Brent that what you state about the suitability of steel for off the beaten track cruising is correct.

He, however, continues with his inverse snobbery that is founded on the premise that " If it aint steel its crap! "

The keel cant come off our GRP boat, it is heavy, has huge water and fuel tanks, all the bells and whistles and is by far the best compromise First Mate and I could find to suit our specific requirements.

It just cost too much-but I would say that, would I not...................................

So you are comparing a 300k boat with a 4k boat and find that the 300k boat is more comfortable!

If you don't go cruising in the steel boat you probably won't ever appreciate the advantages and will continue to gripe about the disadvantages. As Brent says a grp boat would suit you better. But can you get an equally capable grp boat for 4k?

 

[rotrax]

So you are comparing a 300k boat with a 4k boat and find that the 300k boat is more comfortable!

If you don't go cruising in the steel boat you probably won't ever appreciate the advantages and will continue to gripe about the disadvantages. As Brent says a grp boat would suit you better. But can you get an equally capable grp boat for 4k?

Pardon?

Who is griping-or making comparisons! I am stating facts.

I bought a cracking boat for the money. I am well pleased. I will be even more pleased when I get her looking better and the leak fixed.

I am well past retiring age with pretty seriously damaged knees, First Mate has a hip in need of replacement.

We came to sailing late and have found, by actually doing as much sailing as our bodies will allow, a boat that we can cruise and live aboard for five months in comfort.

It is not the Hartley, which is a simple basic boat , but is a lot of boat for the money.

If we were young again-fat chance-the Hartley would certainly do the job-and do it well.

It does require far more cosmetic attention than the IP, but then it ismuch older.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

Pardon?

Who is griping-or making comparisons! I am stating facts.

I bought a cracking boat for the money. I am well pleased. I will be even more pleased when I get her looking better and the leak fixed.

I am well past retiring age with pretty seriously damaged knees, First Mate has a hip in need of replacement.

We came to sailing late and have found, by actually doing as much sailing as our bodies will allow, a boat that we can cruise and live aboard for five months in comfort.

It is not the Hartley, which is a simple basic boat , but is a lot of boat for the money.

If we were young again-fat chance-the Hartley would certainly do the job-and do it well.

It does require far more cosmetic attention than the IP, but then it ismuch older.

I understood this to mean that you were making a comparison between the two boats:

"Compared to our GRP motorsailer it is not in the same league. By comparison it is camping on water."


Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?498670-Steelboats/page4#K2xjrbemjE85s6KI.99

 

[DownWest]

SBS You seem to be missing the point. He has a very well equiped GRP boat and a dirt cheap steel boat. So he has experience of both forms of construction.

Not that long ago, mentioned on this site,was a 36 (38?)ft steel yawl for sale. Pretty boat and round bilge construction with extra thickness for high latitude cruising.Think it had circumnavigated. People questioned it's condition as an old steel boat. But, a member knew the boat and said it was in good condition and the owners were giving up sailing due to age.
It did not reach the £8K reserve on the bay. That must have been a result of the hull material. It came with everthing ready to go..

 

[rotrax]

I understood this to mean that you were making a comparison between the two boats:

"Compared to our GRP motorsailer it is not in the same league. By comparison it is camping on water."


Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?498670-Steelboats/page4#K2xjrbemjE85s6KI.99

It was a factual comparison.

The simple steel Hartley IS like camping on water whereas the IP is as comfortable as home.

The price difference, to some extent, supports this fact.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

I have exactly the same sentiments, backed up by the direct experience of currently owning both a steel and a GRP yacht.

I have no doubt whatsoever-as you have clearly " attacked " steel yachts-that Brent will be along shortly to put us both right..............................................

And this would be a factual gripe?

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

SBS You seem to be missing the point. He has a very well equiped GRP boat and a dirt cheap steel boat. So he has experience of both forms of construction.

Not that long ago, mentioned on this site,was a 36 (38?)ft steel yawl for sale. Pretty boat and round bilge construction with extra thickness for high latitude cruising.Think it had circumnavigated. People questioned it's condition as an old steel boat. But, a member knew the boat and said it was in good condition and the owners were giving up sailing due to age.
It did not reach the £8K reserve on the bay. That must have been a result of the hull material. It came with everthing ready to go..

But the point is that he hasn't experienced the major benefits that a steel boat can bring for liveaboard cruising off the beaten track. For marina-based weekend sailing a grp boat suits most people far better. This is the point that Brent was trying to make and some seem to find difficult to grasp.

The price of old steel yachts is governed by supply and demand; nobody wants them so the price is low. This is great if you want a blue water capable boat all set up and ready to go for 4k. Try doing that in grp!

 

[GHA]

Getting a steel boat for 4k then having to spend time touching up rust shouldn't really come as a great surprise ...

 

[rotrax]

But the point is that he hasn't experienced the major benefits that a steel boat can bring for liveaboard cruising off the beaten track. For marina-based weekend sailing a grp boat suits most people far better. This is the point that Brent was trying to make and some seem to find difficult to grasp.

The price of old steel yachts is governed by supply and demand; nobody wants them so the price is low. This is great if you want a blue water capable boat all set up and ready to go for 4k. Try doing that in grp!

No, I think we have all grasped what Brent has-regularly-said, and we have accepted he is right. Brent seems unable to accept the reverse, that thousands of people use GRP for the same job he uses steel.

He seems unable to grasp that most boatowners choose not to build a steel yacht for little money despite the security given by the material of construction.

He appears not to be able to come to terms with those who dont choose his alternative lifestyle. Those who due to family and business commitments only use their boats for a holiday and weekends he belittles, calling them " Marina Queens "

Well, sailing encompasses all of society in my direct experience. A boat owner is surely free to choose his boat and then use it as he sees fit, without snide remarks on internet forums about their poor choice of build material and limited use of their vessel.

I just love being at sea, on the water, as often as I can cook it. I do have other responsibilities, some for family members who need support plus First Mate and I have physical problems and increasing age to cope with. This means breaks or reduced sailing areas if hospital appointments require attendance.

One thing I never do is critisise others boats, or their chosen material/method of construction. I might say-"wood-I bet that keeps him busy" but that is hardly a critisism.

I am lucky to have a high quality Motorsailer that is perfect for two semi crippled oldies. Especially it ease of cleaning and low maintenance requirements.

I am even luckier to have a very useful steel boat in another location, cost less than many motorcars and does the job very well.

I am often reminded about the reply the American chat show host and motorcycle collector Jay Leno-he has a large and very exclusive collection-gave when asked " Jay-what is you favourite motorbike? "

The reply was a classic.

" The one I am riding when asked that question! "

Ergo-like boats, they are ALL good.

 

[rotrax]

Getting a steel boat for 4k then having to spend time touching up rust shouldn't really come as a great surprise ...

It did not...........................

 

[Brent Swain]

A "straw man" argument is where you pick a point which no one is making ,then argue against it, to convince yourself that you have won the argument ( which no one has been making.) I have never said that everyone should adopt my lifestyle, and no one should want or have or want a marina queen , just that my points and posts are for those who don't want that kind of life style. The straw man arguments assume that everyone should want only that kind of lifestyle. They assume that no one should have info on alternatives.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Holy shit to hell in a hand cart. It didn't take long for the punch up to start.

 

[john_morris_uk]

A "straw man" argument is where you pick a point which no one is making ,then argue against it, to convince yourself that you have won the argument ( which no one has been making.) I have never said that everyone should adopt my lifestyle, and no one should want or have or want a marina queen , just that my points and posts are for those who don't want that kind of life style. The straw man arguments assume that everyone should want only that kind of lifestyle. They assume that no one should have info on alternatives.

You’d gain more respect if you stopped using derisory or snide phrases such as ‘marina queen’.

Out of interest, I was at a YC dinner sitting with this man last Friday: https://oceancruisingclub.org/prizewinner/298/Bill-McLaren

He and his wife only cruise high latitudes. (N and S) and he was Commodore of the Ocean Cruising Club. He was telling me of his sailing around S America and the Falklands and Greenland. His chosen boat for this extreme sailing off the beaten track? A Bowman 40 GRP boat. Bill’s ‘off the beaten track credentials’ are impeccable and trump almost any other sailor in the world in cruising terms.

I’d be tempted by a Bowman 40’ myself if we had to change but there’s a lot of emotional energy in our old (very solid) Westerly GRP boat for us to jump horses now.

 

[A1Sailor]

Here's the Tin Man:

and a thumbnail version for those who wish to use it as an Avatar.:encouragement:


I'll see if I can find a straw man image.

 

[newtothis]

You can always tell when it's Halloween: long-dead threads come back to life and grizzled ghouls, who prove their boats, if not their navigation skills, by bashing them against reefs and beaches, start howling that all who set to sea in anything less than their perfect vessel will be lost without hope. As the wind rises, desperate voices in the rigging start screaming "marina queen, marina queen".

 

[rotrax]

A "straw man" argument is where you pick a point which no one is making ,then argue against it, to convince yourself that you have won the argument ( which no one has been making.) I have never said that everyone should adopt my lifestyle, and no one should want or have or want a marina queen , just that my points and posts are for those who don't want that kind of life style. The straw man arguments assume that everyone should want only that kind of lifestyle. They assume that no one should have info on alternatives.

Methinks he protesteth too much.............................................

 

[Achosenman]

Me thinketh I couldn’t give a rats arse what he says. I put him on ignor hundreds of posts ago. Reading the rants of a delusional waster is time wasted. I could be doing something constructive, like watching paint dry...

 

[Brent Swain]

You’d gain more respect if you stopped using derisory or snide phrases such as ‘marina queen’.

Out of interest, I was at a YC dinner sitting with this man last Friday: https://oceancruisingclub.org/prizewinner/298/Bill-McLaren

He and his wife only cruise high latitudes. (N and S) and he was Commodore of the Ocean Cruising Club. He was telling me of his sailing around S America and the Falklands and Greenland. His chosen boat for this extreme sailing off the beaten track? A Bowman 40 GRP boat. Bill’s ‘off the beaten track credentials’ are impeccable and trump almost any other sailor in the world in cruising terms.

I’d be tempted by a Bowman 40’ myself if we had to change but there’s a lot of emotional energy in our old (very solid) Westerly GRP boat for us to jump horses now.

Yes and there are people with similar experience, who wouldn't dream of cruising in anything which is not metal. No amount of experience makes anyone the "infallible , last word" on any issue.
When you get to Tahiti, you meet a lot of other cruisers ,who have crossed the same stretch of ocean, in the same conditions, who have all drawn different conclusions. Having all had ocean crossing experience, all are self proclaimed 'Experts' and opinions are as varied as the number of them . You should hear the arguments fly. I was no different , after my first crossing, in my early 20s. What I believed after 2 years of singlehanding around the S Pacific then is, in many ways ,very different from what I have learned since. Regardless of experience, it only takes one mid ocean collision with a container or freighter , to upset what one has believed for a long time. I don't think the crew of Gringo are wishing they were in a plastic boat, or singing the praises of plastic over steel.
All the experience in the world, in a plastic boat, does not make one an expert on steel boats, any more than the highest qualifications as a dentist qualifies one to do heart surgery.
Among boats regularly cruising to Antarctica ,plastic is rare ,metal far more common. A friend, who cruised down there for years, has a steel boat. When asked ,she says "I had plastic boats ,owned an aluminium boat ,put lots of miles on them, now I have a steel boat , wouldn't go back to plastic or aluminium. What does that tell you?

 

[Brent Swain]

So you are comparing a 300k boat with a 4k boat and find that the 300k boat is more comfortable!

If you don't go cruising in the steel boat you probably won't ever appreciate the advantages and will continue to gripe about the disadvantages. As Brent says a grp boat would suit you better. But can you get an equally capable grp boat for 4k?

To be comfortable in cold latitudes ,a boat of any material needs insulation, of which most stock boats have none. An uninsulated plastic boat or an uninsulated steel boat are very wet and uncomfortable. Both will drip non stop condensation, when being lived aboard. Friends living on stock plastic boats here are doing everything they can to insulate. First ,they are trying to seal all the inevitable deck leaks you get from having to bolt everything down on a plastic boat, a problem to you don't have with welded down fittings on a steel boat. Most have rotted out balsa cores to deal with. On your side of the pond ,you have greatly reduced the deck leak problem, since the 70s, by raising the deck under fittings ,so water doesn't sit against the bedding. Sadly few, if any ,plastic boat builders here, have caught onto that trick.
Then they spray foam. Even foam cores don't work as well as spray foam. Any where the core is missing , you get serious condensation. Some just go ahead and spray foam ,core or no core, and live very comfortably , as a result. A good airtight woodstove, standard on most liveaboards around here, dries things out quickly, and keeps things super dry.
A properly insulted $4K boat with no deck leaks and a good wood stove, is far more comfortable than any $300K boat without. BTUs don't read the price tag, to decide how they behave.

 

[Brent Swain]

On a steel boat, make damned sure you have a good buildup of epoxy tar on the inside ,before spray foaming. Far too many good boats have been lost to lack of inside epoxy. Foam is no protection for steel.