Steelboats

[rotrax]

Seeing how little cruising time they get, and how much working time they have to do to pay for it, it seems they need a lot of advice, for those who aspire to do more cruising and less working , from someone who has accomplished that since my early 20s, to the chagrin, and frustration of those who stand to profit by keeping them on the consumer treadmill as long as possible. Does the latter describe you?

Most sailors-by, I should imagine, a factor of 10,000 to 1-use sailing as a leisure activity. Cruising is part of that. In my own case, for about 5 months every year.

Being a full time cruiser, living aboard an inexpensive self built steel boat may be an aspiration for some, particularly in the Pacific NW, which is full of those who like alternative life styles.

But, as you have found, most sailors do not wish for that. They have stuff you show a great disdain for in your arrogance, like wives and families.

Wives and families mean, unless camping on water is a great attraction, a little more sophistication than your simple boats provide.

You again show your true mettle with such statements as " To the chagrin and frustration of those who stand to profit by keeping them on the consumer treadmill as long as possible. "

The work/life balance is a choice Brent.

Like choosing the material of a boat.

It's all about what you want from your short time on this planet.

You wanted to go cruising. Others like the idea of a family and a home, with a job that allows them a little money to enjoy other pursuits after looking after the home and family. It is a simple choice. You made yours, they made theirs.

I think it is a truism that you only regret what you did not do.

I hope you have no regrets about your life Brent.

Most sailors I know are not full time cruising liveaboards and have few regrets about their choices either.

 

[Brent Swain]

Most sailors-by, I should imagine, a factor of 10,000 to 1-use sailing as a leisure activity. Cruising is part of that. In my own case, for about 5 months every year.

Being a full time cruiser, living aboard an inexpensive self built steel boat may be an aspiration for some, particularly in the Pacific NW, which is full of those who like alternative life styles.

But, as you have found, most sailors do not wish for that. They have stuff you show a great disdain for in your arrogance, like wives and families.

Wives and families mean, unless camping on water is a great attraction, a little more sophistication than your simple boats provide.

You again show your true mettle with such statements as " To the chagrin and frustration of those who stand to profit by keeping them on the consumer treadmill as long as possible. "

The work/life balance is a choice Brent.

Like choosing the material of a boat.

It's all about what you want from your short time on this planet.

You wanted to go cruising. Others like the idea of a family and a home, with a job that allows them a little money to enjoy other pursuits after looking after the home and family. It is a simple choice. You made yours, they made theirs.

I think it is a truism that you only regret what you did not do.

I hope you have no regrets about your life Brent.

Most sailors I know are not full time cruising liveaboards and have few regrets about their choices either.

I have no regrets about how I have run my life ,unlike many who followed your ways. I certainly would have if I gave up a lifetime of play time, for consumerism, and being told how to live, and what to do 8 or more hours a day. Guys often tell me "I'd love to be doing what you are ,but I cant, because I have a wife." The problem? Wrong wife!
Works both ways .Not gender specific.
A friend with teenage sons was told by their teachers how to check them for drugs. He said 'Screw that' built a super simple, cheap boat, and spent the next 7 years cruising the S Pacific with his family aboard. I sometimes met the oldest one, a cruiser, who says 'Thank god my dad got me away from the influence of those jackasses."
Kids who grow up cruising are far more capable , innovative , self reliant , confident and mature then those who grow up just blindly doing what everyone around them was doing, unquestioningly . Taking them cruising is the best way for kids to grow up; in daily touch with reality.
I have often encouraged my clients to buy an older plastic boat, for the experience. Building a steel boat is for after they have decided to make cruising a way of life . If its the same size, all the rigging and gear can be transferred over .Having dealt with living under a dripping, leaky, condensation soaked plastic deck, gives them a far greater appreciation for steel boats.
Young women, living on their own boats here, tend to reduce them to the simplest and most basic , far more so than my boat. They quickly replace the head with a bucket, or less. Your suggestion that they ALL demand complex, expensive luxury, is an outdated gender stereotype ,and an insult to their resourcefulness and adaptability. Around here, they are far wiser than you give them credit for.

 

[Brent Swain]

I have just looked up the November 2007 report of the Gringo's collision.

I read nothing in the report saying the ship was at full speed before the impact. I suspect it was at economical cruising speed, perhaps 2/3rds of full speed.

What did appear relevant was the issue of watchkeeping. The watchkeeper saw the ship and went below to rouse the crew. The ship made contact with the Gringo before any attempt at avoidance or communication was attempted. I am at a loss as to why this was. Sloppy sailing, poor watchkeeping, poor comunication on board Gringo-who knows, apart from those on board at the time.

The Gringo appears to have survived the impact very well-a sign that steel yachts are tough and durable.

But we all know that. It is such a pity it has negative points that detract from its universal use as a yacht building material.

How likely are you to encounter a ship doing any more than economical cruising speed?
Watchkeeping, pre AIS, was not an option for singlehanders like me. AIS is a huge improvement. I wouldn't cruise offshore without it .
I dont envy the traffic you have to deal with on your pond. 400 ships a day in the English channel. Haven't seen that many at sea in my lifetime.
Here , I can go 500 miles without seeing one. I can count on one hand the number I have seen well offshore, in my lifetime .

 

[rotrax]

1:-How likely are you to encounter a ship doing any more than economical cruising speed?

2:- Watchkeeping, pre AIS, was not an option for singlehanders like me. AIS is a huge improvement. I wouldn't cruise offshore without it .

3:-I dont envy the traffic you have to deal with on your pond. 400 ships a day in the English channel. Haven't seen that many at sea in my lifetime. Here , I can go 500 miles without seeing one. I can count on one hand the number I have seen well offshore, in my lifetime .

I will answer in order as numbered above.

1:- YOU said the Gringo was hit at full speed by the freighter in the post where you introduced it. It now appears that you accept it was NOT at full speed.

2:-You are convinced that a steel yacht is a universal panacea for trouble free sailing. As a singlehander achieving long passages you have admitted that you are unable to adhere to SOLAS requirements. You are relying on a steel yacht to safequard you from your own self inflicted serious shortcomings in watchkeeping. Modern AIS will alleviate this problem, but keeping a watch is mandatory under the Internationally recognised SOLAS rules.

3:- you probably have not seen them because you were not on watch! Regarding the English Channel, I suspect you would be quite put out by having 27 ships at varying speeds travelling E to W and a few miles further 32 ships travelling in the opposite direction. Plus the ferries-some doing in excess of 40 KTS-going your way, as we encountered last 0ctober returning from Cherbourg. You can only deal with what you find in sailing!

Just saying..............................

 

[rotrax]

I have no regrets about how I have run my life ,unlike many who followed your ways. I certainly would have if I gave up a lifetime of play time, for consumerism, and being told how to live, and what to do 8 or more hours a day. Guys often tell me "I'd love to be doing what you are ,but I cant, because I have a wife." The problem? Wrong wife!
Works both ways .Not gender specific.
A friend with teenage sons was told by their teachers how to check them for drugs. He said 'Screw that' built a super simple, cheap boat, and spent the next 7 years cruising the S Pacific with his family aboard. I sometimes met the oldest one, a cruiser, who says 'Thank god my dad got me away from the influence of those jackasses."
Kids who grow up cruising are far more capable , innovative , self reliant , confident and mature then those who grow up just blindly doing what everyone around them was doing, unquestioningly . Taking them cruising is the best way for kids to grow up; in daily touch with reality.
I have often encouraged my clients to buy an older plastic boat, for the experience. Building a steel boat is for after they have decided to make cruising a way of life . If its the same size, all the rigging and gear can be transferred over .Having dealt with living under a dripping, leaky, condensation soaked plastic deck, gives them a far greater appreciation for steel boats.
Young women, living on their own boats here, tend to reduce them to the simplest and most basic , far more so than my boat. They quickly replace the head with a bucket, or less. Your suggestion that they ALL demand complex, expensive luxury, is an outdated gender stereotype ,and an insult to their resourcefulness and adaptability. Around here, they are far wiser than you give them credit for.

I am working really hard to see what most of that has to do with the post I made.

It does, however, reinforce the fact that you show severe disdain for those who aspire to a little more in life than you.

 

[newtothis]

Nice try..
But..
Fat chance
You missed the bits where every alternative method of construction was trashed and any body designing, selling or owning GRP boats were called liars, cheats, con artists or just plain stupid.
Brent does have a few good ideas, but they get lost in his constant wilder attacks on anybody who doesn't follow his creed. Not to mention the examples of 'proof' of his ideas/sales that are not anywhere like realistic.

I did say it was an alternative universe

 

[newtothis]

That is what I have been saying all along. ANY suggestion of ANY advantages of steel over plastic, automatically get a pile on attack by plastic advocates ,on most sites, except those with a lot of steel boat owners and builders, who have actual hands on experience with good steel boats.

Brent, my post, albeit wishful thinking, was to show how you could have addressed this. Instead, you've been the one constantly attacking other people's life choices and boat choices, then getting defensive when those who have chosen a different path to you have kicked back against your tirades. You assume everyone who does something other than what you do is a victim of advertising and a sucker for working a day job.
If you'd stuck to just talking about what you know about steel boats, you might have got some respect. But your invective and dismissal of anything that is not BS has just painted you as a sad, delusional loser banging a drum that most people are not interested in.

 

[DownWest]

Brent, my post, albeit wishful thinking, was to show how you could have addressed this. Instead, you've been the one constantly attacking other people's life choices and boat choices, then getting defensive when those who have chosen a different path to you have kicked back against your tirades. You assume everyone who does something other than what you do is a victim of advertising and a sucker for working a day job.
If you'd stuck to just talking about what you know about steel boats, you might have got some respect. But your invective and dismissal of anything that is not BS has just painted you as a sad, delusional loser banging a drum that most people are not interested in.

Quite, Brent obviously missed the intent of your post, just assumed it was pro his ideas. Not exactly a surprise.
Like his comment on my building a wooden boat. Each to his own, but he had to disparage it. Bit pitiful really.

 

[Brent Swain]

I will answer in order as numbered above.

1:- YOU said the Gringo was hit at full speed by the freighter in the post where you introduced it. It now appears that you accept it was NOT at full speed.

2:-You are convinced that a steel yacht is a universal panacea for trouble free sailing. As a singlehander achieving long passages you have admitted that you are unable to adhere to SOLAS requirements. You are relying on a steel yacht to safequard you from your own self inflicted serious shortcomings in watchkeeping. Modern AIS will alleviate this problem, but keeping a watch is mandatory under the Internationally recognised SOLAS rules.

3:- you probably have not seen them because you were not on watch! Regarding the English Channel, I suspect you would be quite put out by having 27 ships at varying speeds travelling E to W and a few miles further 32 ships travelling in the opposite direction. Plus the ferries-some doing in excess of 40 KTS-going your way, as we encountered last 0ctober returning from Cherbourg. You can only deal with what you find in sailing!

Just saying..............................

1.Full normal cruising speed.
2. Panacea? I never made that claim. Another "straw man" arguement .Far better odds and far greater safety/ Absolutely !
You say people like Moitessier, Knox Johnston , Slocum , Chay Blythe, Phillipoe Jeantot ,etc,etc ,and all the pre AIS singlehanders , should not have been allowed to sail singlehanded ? You say only extraverts should have been allowed to cruise?

Screw you!
3. Simple solution to the English channel for people like me.
Don't go there .
Problem solved. I have a paradise to cruise in.

 

[Brent Swain]

I am working really hard to see what most of that has to do with the post I made.

It does, however, reinforce the fact that you show severe disdain for those who aspire to a little more in life than you.

I define "more in life" as more play time and more time to do as I please 24-7 ,rather than more stuff, while having to sell so much of my freedom to pay for it.

 

[Brent Swain]

You are quite right-it offers nothing at all regarding steel boats.

It was born out of total frustration with BS.

I do own a modest steel yacht-I was replacing the hatch yesterday after fettling the rusty mounting.

When its gone, I wont be having another.......................................

Zip cut the rusty steel out and replace it with stainless. I have done that, and its not a big job. Eliminates corrosion there permanently . Scrape the foam back 2 inches ,and jam some wet rags in there, while welding. Make sure you clean the burnt paint off, and epoxy it well, before putting the foam back.Make sure the foam you put back is closed cell; not all caned foam is.
I heard Brnard eventually zip cut the mild steel fittings off Joshua ,and replaced them with welded down stainless, drastically reducing maintenance.

 

[Brent Swain]

Nice try..
But..
Fat chance
You missed the bits where every alternative method of construction was trashed and any body designing, selling or owning GRP boats were called liars, cheats, con artists or just plain stupid.
Brent does have a few good ideas, but they get lost in his constant wilder attacks on anybody who doesn't follow his creed. Not to mention the examples of 'proof' of his ideas/sales that are not anywhere like realistic.

Other materials and methods work well ,but for long term cruising as a full time life style, and for a one off, custom steel boat, or a home builder, mine are simply better, by a wide margin, for the reasons I have posted..
The real life experiences I posted couldn't be more real. They are certainly more real than armchair theory.

 

[Brent Swain]

Semi retiring and cruising mostly full time early in life, is easy. Reducing the relevance of money works, something I figured out at the age of 16.
It also reduces the power over you ,of those who have money, which tics them off.( seeing someone with far less money, having more fun than them!)
The average cost of moorage here is the same as the cost of cruising full time ,eliminating the need for moorage .
The average cost of owning a car here is 2 or 3 times the cost of cruising full time, eliminating the need for a car.
Ditto land rent, etc ,etc .
Here , with our beaches l piled high with wood ,free for the taking eliminates heating costs .
Lots of fresh water, free for the taking.
Fishing, hunting and oysters and shellfish, free for the taking reduces food costs considerably.

 

[rotrax]

1.Full normal cruising speed.
2. Panacea? I never made that claim. Another "straw man" arguement .Far better odds and far greater safety/ Absolutely !
You say people like Moitessier, Knox Johnston , Slocum , Chay Blythe, Phillipoe Jeantot ,etc,etc ,and all the pre AIS singlehanders , should not have been allowed to sail singlehanded ? You say only extraverts should have been allowed to cruise?

Screw you!
3. Simple solution to the English channel for people like me.
Don't go there .
Problem solved. I have a paradise to cruise in.

Answers in numbers again Brent.

1:-YOU stated full speed, not normal cruising speed. Another typo perhaps........................

2:- Perhaps not directly, but we must draw from your rants about any boat not made from steel that that is what you believe.
The SOLAS regulations-I wonder if you actually know what SOLAS means-are after many of the names you mention. But, if you read about Dame Ellen McArthur's circumnavigation records, she used a kitchen timer to wake her every 15 minutes.
Now tell me where I suggested anyone should not be allowed to sail long passages singlehanded-I clearly did not. I did however, indicate-and I am indisputably correct-that ALL mariners should abide by the Internationally approved SOLAS rules.
It is quite clear that you dont give a toss for them.

3:- I will be very happy for you to cruise in your paradise. Stay there so we dont have to put up with your pointless crusade for steel boats nearer at hand.
It is a pointless crusade as anyone who is switched on to the advantages-and disadvantages-of steel boats will gravitate towards the steel boat info on social media anyway. The attacks-a favourite word of yours-you make on GRP boats, their owners and associated support enterprise does you no credit as it is mostly total BS.
Stay in Comox, and be happy.

 

[Brent Swain]

Brent, my post, albeit wishful thinking, was to show how you could have addressed this. Instead, you've been the one constantly attacking other people's life choices and boat choices, then getting defensive when those who have chosen a different path to you have kicked back against your tirades. You assume everyone who does something other than what you do is a victim of advertising and a sucker for working a day job.
If you'd stuck to just talking about what you know about steel boats, you might have got some respect. But your invective and dismissal of anything that is not BS has just painted you as a sad, delusional loser banging a drum that most people are not interested in.

What I know about steel boats and cruising in general ,is how to do it mostly full time since ones 20s, which some here might just be trying to figure out, and others might not want them to figure out.

 

[rotrax]

Zip cut the rusty steel out and replace it with stainless. I have done that, and its not a big job. Eliminates corrosion there permanently . Scrape the foam back 2 inches ,and jam some wet rags in there, while welding. Make sure you clean the burnt paint off, and epoxy it well, before putting the foam back.Make sure the foam you put back is closed cell; not all caned foam is.
I heard Brnard eventually zip cut the mild steel fittings off Joshua ,and replaced them with welded down stainless, drastically reducing maintenance.

Brent what part of " The old clunker just aint worth it " dont you understand. Its a cheap toy.

Just so you know, the previous owner had it wedged so far up his fundimental orifice that in two years he had only 3 prospective buyers view it. I was the last and have him less than half of what he was asking. If it had been a GRP boat, it would have been twice the asking price-$40,000 NZ Dollars. I gave $8,500 NZ Dollars. I would struggle to sell it for $12,000 after doing as you suggest, and I have continuously improved it over the 5 years I have owned it.

I have a fabulous boat in the UK and a cheap steel boat in NZ. Of course I could do all of your suggestions. It would undoubtedly lower the future maintenance requirements. But, it would cost some money-not much, but some-and time. At my age, time is in short supply.

But-it is not worth it financially.

You have told us lots of times that old GRP boats can be had for a song in BC.

Well, change GRP for steel and that is the case in NZ.

Steel boats do not have a high retained value. Fact.

 

[bbg]

That is what I have been saying all along. ANY suggestion of ANY advantages of steel over plastic, automatically get a pile on attack by plastic advocates ,on most sites, except those with a lot of steel boat owners and builders, who have actual hands on experience with good steel boats.

Total, complete, utter BS. And I don't mean Brent Swain.

The opposite is true. ANY suggestion of ANY advantages of GRP over steel as a better choice of material for a long term cruiser, automatically get an attack by you.

That is what this thread is about. You fail to realise that GRP (or wood, or ferro, anything else) could be the best material for OTHERS who want to cruise long-term and long-distance.

You are not imaginative enough to realise that different people want and prioritise different things. Your priorities are not "correct" or "better" than anyone else's. They are just yours. Stop criticising and insulting people who don't want what you want.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

Zip cut the rusty steel out and replace it with stainless. I have done that, and its not a big job. Eliminates corrosion there permanently . Scrape the foam back 2 inches ,and jam some wet rags in there, while welding. Make sure you clean the burnt paint off, and epoxy it well, before putting the foam back.Make sure the foam you put back is closed cell; not all caned foam is.
I heard Brnard eventually zip cut the mild steel fittings off Joshua ,and replaced them with welded down stainless, drastically reducing maintenance.

Brent, when you say "zip cut" do you mean using a ZIP cutting disc in the angle grinder?

 

[rotrax]

Other materials and methods work well ,but for long term cruising as a full time life style, and for a one off, custom steel boat, or a home builder, mine are simply better, by a wide margin, for the reasons I have posted..
The real life experiences I posted couldn't be more real. They are certainly more real than armchair theory.

Most of us here probably believe you have two out of three.

To be brutally honest, with absolutly no regard for your feelings and ready to piss all over your fireworks, any well found yacht with sound seakeeping, accomadation and a servicable rig will serve for the full time liveaboard lifestyle. I know this as two friends of mine, fellow Island Packet owners are currently doing just that.

Shock-Horror-in a GRP yacht!

The last two you have correct. Not possible to build a custom steel yacht out of anything else, and steel is good for home build.

But the many thousands doing what you have aspired to in yachts made of other materials than steel totally defeats your first statement. Which is BS.

 

[Brent Swain]

Brent what part of " The old clunker just aint worth it " dont you understand. Its a cheap toy.

Just so you know, the previous owner had it wedged so far up his fundimental orifice that in two years he had only 3 prospective buyers view it. I was the last and have him less than half of what he was asking. If it had been a GRP boat, it would have been twice the asking price-$40,000 NZ Dollars. I gave $8,500 NZ Dollars. I would struggle to sell it for $12,000 after doing as you suggest, and I have continuously improved it over the 5 years I have owned it.

I have a fabulous boat in the UK and a cheap steel boat in NZ. Of course I could do all of your suggestions. It would undoubtedly lower the future maintenance requirements. But, it would cost some money-not much, but some-and time. At my age, time is in short supply.

But-it is not worth it financially.

You have told us lots of times that old GRP boats can be had for a song in BC.

Well, change GRP for steel and that is the case in NZ.

Steel boats do not have a high retained value. Fact.

Yes ,in the year and a half I spent in New Zealand, I did find "yotti culture" had a very high prevalence of "pretentiousness over practicality , " values. Snobbery outweighed the practical, to a huge degree.
Friends, with their hearts set on a steel boat, after decades of cruising the Pacific in a plastic one, said they started looking in California, where they were extremely rare. As they moved northward , the further north they went, the more common steel boats became . In BC they were far more common and even more so in the rugged conditions of Alaska.
They bought one of my 31s ,and sailed her to Turkey, and back to Florida. Mine get scooped up in a matter of days
in Alaska, for a good price. If well done, my 36 footers here sell quickly for around $44k.
I hear the east cost of the US is cluttered with abandoned plastic boats, which no one wants. Maybe that is a good place to shop for one.
In San Francisco they are grinding them up to make concrete reinforcing.
San Carlos near Guaymas Mexico has a yard full of around 300 of them, for real cheap.
Nice jumping off spot for the Pacific.