Steelboats

[A1Sailor]

Mr Steel Boat Brent is VERY fond of putting quotes from one theme forum's and single interest websites on here, as well as unsubstantiated claims, which, when challenged on, he cannot link to.

In that vein, a little story re GRP. Nicholson built a very good GRP yacht, the 32. They then built 26 55's.

Our Ministry of Defence purchased twelve for Adventurous Sail Training, giving our armed services the chance to experience sailing all around the world at modest cost. IIRC, all were delivered in the 1970's. They were made of GRP, designed by a good designer and built by craftsmen.

They gave superb service and no doubt a number cruncher could calculate the total mileage sailed by the fleet, but certainly more than most steel boats used by long term cruising liveaboards.

When they got tired-as all hard used boats do-replacement was considered. And rejected, as NOTHING available would fit the requirements, at any price.

So, they were re-fitted and continued in service. A couple might be still in service for all I know-a few years ago they were.

So, 40 years of being sailed on all Oceans, in all weathers by hairy arsed gung ho squaddies, airmen and matelots with a pro qualified skipper in charge. The boats were still in fair nick, still floating, untold thousands of sea miles under their keels. Not one sunk through hitting a container, another vessel or a whale while in this particularly arduous useage. I suspect another poster can add better info on the Nic 55's than me!
It really is an unsuitable material to build a boat from, isn't it?

Surely all 12 of them have been sunk after hitting a sandbar in mid-ocean or grounding on a coral reef and getting pounded in the surf.

 

[Brent Swain]

Your suggestion being that everything which happens is documented, is total bull. You give no evidence that you have ever sailed anywhere, we are supposed to take your word for it? Circumnavigations ?In your fantasies, maybe.

It’s interesting to note that people who have elaborate and detailed stories and protest the loudest are those who in the end often prove to be lying.

I’ve never given you many details of my sailing career over the last fifty years or so. If you think I need to somehow prove my sailing experience then it’s your problem and not mine.

I’m sailing in Malaysia in February (on a commercially registered GRP yacht). Would you like to meet me there?

PS I’ve never claimed that everything that happens is documented. However I do assert that if GRP boats fell foul to disaster as frequently as you claim then it would be in the news more often.[/QUOTE]

No, I'm thinking more about Cuba this winter .Been there loved it .
Another great post from the origami boats site.

Look at how they make a rudder on a Hanse. What a joke. They say this is reliable and won't corrode but reality is different than theory. I know of a brand new Hanse that was being delivered to Nelson from Auckland. The delivery crew came into New Plymouth with the rudder bearings leaking so badly from the rudder flexing and working that they were scared to continue another 24 hrs without talking and getting approval from the dealer and the insurance company. Imagine what the aluminum alloy rudder stock will be like after 10 years in the water with copper bottom paint. These engineers need to go back to school or spend some time offshore. Foam with a thin glass skin and a few internal struts to hold it all together is just not good enough. Paul

http://www.windcrafthanse.com/hanse-steering/

http://www.myhanse.com/rudder-problems-on-atlantic-crossing-dove-ii_topic10072.html

This was the first origami 36 I built, a prototype, on the beach in Mexico just south of San Ignatio, on the west coast of Baja. After 16 days of pounding in they type of surf shown ,much bigger at high tide, and much bigger further out, 12 ft surf over hard sand.
Notice the second picture shows zero skeg damage . They winched her out thru 12 ft surf ,zero serious hull or skeg damage. The only damage was a dent where they tried a hydraulic jack on her, and a bent half inch plate bow roller.
I build them much stronger now, with angles instead of flat bar for longitudinals, and the skeg 3 times as wide , and longer, with more reinforcing inside.
And you say this is dangerous, but advocate something like Calder's plastic boat, which had water coming in, and a wrecked skeg and rudder, from a few brief bumps on a sand bar?
Ohh ya ,you say that simply doesn't happen ,with someone as meticulous, and experienced as Calder?
So much for that theory!

 

[capnsensible]

I must say, Brent, you old blagger, you certainly sell your boats to some rubbish sailors.

Anyway, on boxing day, got a nice text from some friends of ours who had safely arrived in Barbados after a crossing from The Canaries via the Cape Verdes.

His boat is a Hanse 45, about ten years old. I did some teaching for him on it, got her crankin along around 9 knots on a close reach. Lovely.

So if you are heading through Panama in mid March time Cuba bound, we could meet for a beer, I'll be heading west. We can sit and count the rusty old steel boats in Shelter Bay. I happen to know there is a few!

 

[Brent Swain]

You remind me of my brother's daughter, who, at the age of 5 was learning to read, and was being driven by her dad, past a McDonald's restaurant.
She read the sign, then asked her dad
"Dad . What does 5 million survived mean?"

Calder had no problem for many years, until his"infallibility" final failed ,and he hit a sandbar. Until then one can say it wont ever happen, so a boat doesn't have to be strong ( as you continually imply).
In the long run, that is completely ludicrous of you.

You just defined Nigel Calder as a " rubbish sailor"because he hit the bar.

Sailors who buy my boats are much wiser, and more realistic than that.

 

[capnsensible]

You remind me of my brother's daughter, who, at the age of 5 was learning to read, and was being driven by her dad, past a McDonald's restaurant.
She read the sign, then asked her dad
"Dad . What does 5 million survived mean?"

Calder had no problem for many years, until his"infallibility" final failed ,and he hit a sandbar. Until then one can say it wont ever happen, so a boat doesn't have to be strong ( as you continually imply).
In the long run, that is completely ludicrous of you.

Facts hurt, dont they.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Mr Steel Boat Brent is VERY fond of putting quotes from one theme forum's and single interest websites on here, as well as unsubstantiated claims, which, when challenged on, he cannot link to.

In that vein, a little story re GRP. Nicholson built a very good GRP yacht, the 32. They then built 26 55's.

Our Ministry of Defence purchased twelve for Adventurous Sail Training, giving our armed services the chance to experience sailing all around the world at modest cost. IIRC, all were delivered in the 1970's. They were made of GRP, designed by a good designer and built by craftsmen.

They gave superb service and no doubt a number cruncher could calculate the total mileage sailed by the fleet, but certainly more than most steel boats used by long term cruising liveaboards.

When they got tired-as all hard used boats do-replacement was considered. And rejected, as NOTHING available would fit the requirements, at any price.

So, they were re-fitted and continued in service. A couple might be still in service for all I know-a few years ago they were.

So, 40 years of being sailed on all Oceans, in all weathers by hairy arsed gung ho squaddies, airmen and matelots with a pro qualified skipper in charge. The boats were still in fair nick, still floating, untold thousands of sea miles under their keels. Not one sunk through hitting a container, another vessel or a whale while in this particularly arduous useage. I suspect another poster can add better info on the Nic 55's than me!
It really is an unsuitable material to build a boat from, isn't it?

I’ll admit I was one of those skippers. They were kept on but were replaced for ocean and round the world sailing by steel built (ex clipper) 67’s. I also skippered them. Most of the steel 67’s are now beyond economic repair and are out of service but the Nicholsons soldier on. (Excuse the pun). In fact one ex mod Nic 55 has been bought by a regular contributor to these forums.

 

[Brent Swain]

I’ll admit I was one of those skippers. They were kept on but were replaced for ocean and round the world sailing by steel built (ex clipper) 67’s. I also skippered them. Most of the steel 67’s are now beyond economic repair and are out of service but the Nicholsons soldier on. (Excuse the pun). In fact one ex mod Nic 55 has been bought by a regular contributor to these forums.

British steel is still in fine shape . What year was she built in?

Its hard to imagine anything more ludicrous, than claiming a design which can survive 16 days of pounding on a Baja lee shore in big surf, which can survive over 350,00 miles of ocean cruising in all weathers , can survive pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, and being dragged back across that reef by a tug, which can survive being blown ashore in a hurricane in the Mozambique channel, a collision with a freighter, a single season trip thru the NW passage ,all with no serious structural problems of any kind, is "dangerous" , and not as "safe" as a plastic boat which cant survive a few brief bumps on a sand bar , without serious damage .

 

[Brent Swain]

I’ll admit I was one of those skippers. They were kept on but were replaced for ocean and round the world sailing by steel built (ex clipper) 67’s. I also skippered them. Most of the steel 67’s are now beyond economic repair and are out of service but the Nicholsons soldier on. (Excuse the pun). In fact one ex mod Nic 55 has been bought by a regular contributor to these forums.

Yes, I have seen how the military looks after things. They had a lot of problems on our warships , from boilers cracking. My father a lifetime steam engineer, said there is no reason for a boiler to crack, if you descale them properly.
However if one is only on a 3 year stint, and you can make the books look good by putting off maintenance until your stint is over ,you get the brownie points ,and the next guy gets the blame for the consequences of your neglect.
I suspect that is what happens to military steel boats too.
I saw some navy boats come into Heriot bay with rust streaks.I toldthem how to solve the problem quickly .
The response?
"That is not our concern . We leave that to the shipyards, after the damage has been done."


My boat is 34 years old and going strong .Did plenty of ocean crossing. No problem making 40 .

 

[rotrax]

British steel is still in fine shape . What year was she built in?

Its hard to imagine anything more ludicrous, than claiming a design which can survive 16 days of pounding on a Baja lee shore in big surf, which can survive over 350,00 miles of ocean cruising in all weathers , can survive pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, and being dragged back across that reef by a tug, which can survive being blown ashore in a hurricane in the Mozambique channel, a collision with a freighter, a single season trip thru the NW passage ,all with no serious structural problems of any kind, is "dangerous" , and not as "safe" as a plastic boat which cant survive a few brief bumps on a sand bar , without serious damage .

You are becoming even more delusional than ever.

Point out where one of the opposite camp to your steel fixation has ever suggested your boat-or ones like it are unsafe.

How many times must we tell you:- WE AGREE! For a long term livaboard cruiser off the beaten track your boats are the bollocks! The dogs bollocks in fact.

To present you with an inconvienient truth, the only poster who has suggested any type of boat is unsafe Brent, is you with your anti GRP fixation.

The trouble is, you are, as I have told you before, flogging a dead 'un.

For all their safety and attributes, most sailors don't want the hassle of a steel boat. Most sailors are not liveaboard long term cruisers off the beaten track.

Perhaps there is a clue there somewhere.

 

[rotrax]

Yes, I have seen how the military looks after things. They had a lot of problems on our warships , from boilers cracking. My father a lifetime steam engineer, said there is no reason for a boiler to crack, if you descale them properly.
However if one is only on a 3 year stint, and you can make the books look good by putting off maintenance until your stint is over ,you get the brownie points ,and the next guy gets the blame for the consequences of your neglect.
I suspect that is what happens to military steel boats too.
I saw some navy boats come into Heriot bay with rust streaks.I toldthem how to solve the problem quickly .
The response?
"That is not our concern . We leave that to the shipyards, after the damage has been done."


My boat is 34 years old and going strong .Did plenty of ocean crossing. No problem making 40 .

Once again you show yourself to be a " Got one, had one, been there, done it "

This B***S*** fools nobody. You would be looking at a thumping if you suggested to the team who look after and maintain our JSASTC sailboats that they don't know what they are doing or don't do it properly.

Untill I mentioned the Nic 55's you did not even know such a sailing centre existed and within hours you have made your mind up they don't do it right?

All you know about is your cheap, simple steel origami yachts.

Don't comment when it is out of your experience.

Remember Brent-your boat is so good you set it on fire with an exhaust leak.

Did'nt get that bit right did you-and you did not hear the extra noise from the blowing exhaust pipe.

In many ways you have a unique and practical take on sailing and boatbuilding.

You are also prone to gobbing off on things you know absolutely nothing about from direct experience.

That belittles you.

IMHO, of course.

PS:- If you call what you showed in the picture big surf you are very much mistaken.

That's little waves. In big surf the guy in the water would not keep his feet.

Bigger waves/surf than that in the Solent when the Independence of the Seas cruise liner goes out of Southampton Water and towards Portsmouth, just from the wash.

Just saying...……………………………..

 

[rotrax]

You remind me of my brother's daughter, who, at the age of 5 was learning to read, and was being driven by her dad, past a McDonald's restaurant.
She read the sign, then asked her dad
"Dad . What does 5 million survived mean?"

Calder had no problem for many years, until his"infallibility" final failed ,and he hit a sandbar. Until then one can say it wont ever happen, so a boat doesn't have to be strong ( as you continually imply).
In the long run, that is completely ludicrous of you.

You just defined Nigel Calder as a " rubbish sailor"because he hit the bar.

Sailors who buy my boats are much wiser, and more realistic than that.

I am at a loss to know why you consider Nigel Calder " Infallible ".

He is a long term liveaboard cruiser and has written many well received books on cruising and boat maintenance. He prefers GRP boats, normally from a Scandanavian yard.

Like Gag Halfrunt the psychiatrist in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy said about Zaphod Beeblebrox:-

" Zaphod-he is just this guy you know!"

Just because he is published he is not an infallible paragon of virtue.

Unlike you, Brent………………………..

 

[Skylark]

.
However if one is only on a 3 year stint, and you can make the books look good by putting off maintenance until your stint is over ,you get the brownie points ,and the next guy gets the blame for the consequences of your neglect.
I suspect that is what happens to military steel boats too.

I do not have a military background and no experience of the JSAT yachts. However, I have first hand experience of the Cyprus JS sub aqua adventure training establishment and, in my working career, I was heavily involved with specialist military vehicles.

A wise man, Mr Swain, would retract your comments above and issue an unreserved apology.

 

[Daydream believer]

http://www.windcrafthanse.com/hanse-steering/

If you asked 1000 people what they would chose - to enjoy & sail without any problem & feel proud to own- that example above, or one of your skips - what do you think they would choose?
& can you really blame them?

 

[john_morris_uk]

I do not have a military background and no experience of the JSAT yachts. However, I have first hand experience of the Cyprus JS sub aqua adventure training establishment and, in my working career, I was heavily involved with specialist military vehicles.

A wise man, Mr Swain, would retract your comments above and issue an unreserved apology.

There are two sure things that it’s become apparent about Brent. The first is that he absolutely and irrefutably thinks he is right and others are wrong. The second is that even when proven to be wrong he never apologises.

His suggestions regarding military maintenance regimes and practices shows his complete and utter ignorance of how the RN maintain their ships. The Navy also maintain the JSASTC yachts. There is a comprehensive maintenance and inspection and survey program. I know all about it because even the relief skippers (like I am/was) are involved in it. Brent’s jumping to conclusions based on his father’s experiences and a one off chat with ‘a sailor’ is so wide of the mark as to be almost funny if it wasn’t so insulting.

 

[Poecheng]

If you asked 1000 people what they would chose - to enjoy & sail without any problem & feel proud to own- that example above, or one of your skips - what do you think they would choose?
& can you really blame them?

LOL, brings new meaning to 'skipper'

 

[rotrax]

LOL, brings new meaning to 'skipper'

IIRC, Tom Cunliffe welded an outboard bracket on a skip and motored it under the Itchen Bridge for a TV programme about the development of boats.

Perhaps that's where Brent got the idea from!

Joking apart, john morris uk has hit the nail on the head, BS thinks he is right, and when irrefutably proved wrong by the published word or by those with direct experience he never makes an apology.

My steel yacht is to be launched today, after attention to the window and port apertures, a bit of paint and new windows and ports. She is looking really good. I hope I get a few seasons out of her before a proper job is required to the window apertures, which are badly corroded and were very rusty.

I know it is down to build quality and avoiding certain things that cause problems for the future, but Brent's excellent build and protective suggestions came far too late for the guy who built her in the early 80's. I have had to deal with what I found.

Another thing that made me chuckle-Brent suggested when I said the yard wanted me out and back in the water that I could deal with the windows in the water.

Well, Brent, we all know YOU can walk on water, but I cant.

It is a flush decked vessel with no coachroof, the windows and ports are in the upper hull, above the water and a bit too uncomfortable to deal with from the topsides for my shot knees...……………...

 

[rogerthebodger]

There are two sure things that it’s become apparent about Brent. The first is that he absolutely and irrefutably thinks he is right and others are wrong. The second is that even when proven to be wrong he never apologises.

 

[Brent Swain]

You are becoming even more delusional than ever.

Point out where one of the opposite camp to your steel fixation has ever suggested your boat-or ones like it are unsafe.



To present you with an inconvienient truth, the only poster who has suggested any type of boat is unsafe Brent, is you with your anti GRP fixation.

The trouble is, you are, as I have told you before, flogging a dead 'un.

.

Brent may have some thought through and ingenious ideas but some if his claims and suggestions are downright dangerous.

Right here!
Got it?

 

[rotrax]

Brent may have some thought through and ingenious ideas but some if his claims and suggestions are downright dangerous.

Right here!
Got it?

You are either stupid or obtuse Brent-there is no other explanation.

The post you quoted-as you well know-referred to some of your ridiculous ideas like not needing a liferaft and shutting the hatch when your boat is on fire.

Either of those ideas might work or have worked for you, but suggestions like that ARE dangerous to newbies who do not know better.

Many have suggested that your welding looks like bird $H1t-and it does-but you assure us you can stay an a surf beach for over a week without damage.

So the references were not about your boats.

You however, persist in denigrating anything not made of steel.

Why? Is it a personality defect? Was there an issue with you as a child where a GRP boat frightened you?
There must be some reason as it verges on hatred of GRP boats and their owners. And as for Brokers, Chandlers and salesmen, they are all crooks.

I know they are-you keep telling me...…………………………..

 

[Achosenman]

I've kept reading this thread...I can't look away

Brent please help these http://barba.no/ poor unfortunate fools with your wisdom...they're in mortal danger