Steelboats

[Ladybirdgaffcutter]

Having sailed GRP yachts for 30 years, on a sea where steel leisure boats were frowned upon, to a degree, (generally on the basis that they were at great risk of rusting away).... I now have a steel narrowboat, on the canal system, where “plastic boats” are seen as the poor cousin, and weak compared to steel.
Ironic and amusing

Plenty of 20 to 30 year old steel narrowboats in good condition knocking around, and a few rusting hulks

I have a 123 year-old iron sailing boat, she doen't have any rust

 

[Daydream believer]

Whilst one might accept- to a point- that BS had photo'd the slag & not the actual weld i seem to recall a comment, much earlier, that he would just grind away the slag & re weld the original area to ensure a decent job & save time. I am not sure how bodging saves time, but that is his preferred method. Added to the fact that he is welding to painted steel & the hours he is quoting for welding leaves little time for adequate preparation of the work ie paint removal etc. One might have some concern regarding the consistency of welding.

I would also note that this creates little confidence of his ability to weld other structural components in difficult situations , I would point to bulkhead, frames , stringers etc. Ie some of the components indicated in one of his earlier pictures of shot blasting. These areas need to be welded in one go as grinding is not so easily accomplished.

Perhaps to allay forumites suspicions BS might consider showing details of some longer finished welds prior to painting after slag removal. He must surely have some, as it would seem that he has completed an awful lot of welds. It is, after all a little unfair to denounce his ability on just one carp piece of workmanship. Let's see some more carp workmanship first.

I note that in an earlier post he referred to times based on double chined construction. The picture shown a few post back is just a single chined box. What happened to the other chine?
Another thing that does not fit with his explanations. I wonder if it sails like a box as well!!!

If BS is using pre coated steel & then welding joints, one wonders how the recently welded joint (all over the hull in & out) is prevented from going rusty prior to re coating. One assumes ( I must admit that i have never been there & never want to) that in the areas where he is carrying out these works humidity, & the resulting rust level, is high.

Perhaps not I do not know. if one welds something inside it must burn the finish outside- does it not?. This would need re treating fairly quickly. may i ask how this is dealt with?

 

[Brent Swain]

Gotcha!

Get out of that one Brent!

Out of your own mouth you have destroyed your credibility re cruising/live aboard/boatbuilding as the maths does not work.

And, as usual, you avoid answering relevant stuff and go off on another subject.

Getting on to welding, I can use-to a VERY high standard-Oxy Acetylene kit for both conventional and bronze welding, arc welders, again to a high standard, MIG welders, ditto, and I have some small experience with TIG and Argon kit, but not much. I practiced on some damaged racing motorcycle alloy crankcases with a mates TIG gear, to the extent they are still in use today.

If I produced a weld that looked like some of the ones you have posted, slag or no slag, I would be embarrassed to let others see it.

Just saying...……………………………….

If you tried to weld a steel boat the way you do motorcyles , tig, oxy acetylene, etc it would take decades to weld . With such slow, tedious methods, its understandable you would be skeptical of my time lines .No, Mr Anonymous I am not that dense. Speak for yourself.
You may define cruising as sailing full time, 24-7, 365 days a year, without ever stopping, for decades, without ever hitting a coffee shop or library ,or cruise the internet a bit ,but few cruisers share your definition. Most of us spend a couple of weeks here, a couple of weeks there, enjoying our freedom .Some of us even spend a few days at Xmas, close to family.
You should try it sometime .

 

[Brent Swain]

Even welds that looked immaculate didn’t always pass scrutiny and yet

And someone here claims they can determine the strength and penetration of a weld, by looking at an online photo of the slag on top of it?

 

[Brent Swain]

Whilst one might accept- to a point- that BS had photo'd the slag & not the actual weld i seem to recall a comment, much earlier, that he would just grind away the slag & re weld the original area to ensure a decent job & save time. I am not sure how bodging saves time, but that is his preferred method. Added to the fact that he is welding to painted steel & the hours he is quoting for welding leaves little time for adequate preparation of the work ie paint removal etc. One might have some concern regarding the consistency of welding.

I would also note that this creates little confidence of his ability to weld other structural components in difficult situations , I would point to bulkhead, frames , stringers etc. Ie some of the components indicated in one of his earlier pictures of shot blasting. These areas need to be welded in one go as grinding is not so easily accomplished.

Perhaps to allay forumites suspicions BS might consider showing details of some longer finished welds prior to painting after slag removal. He must surely have some, as it would seem that he has completed an awful lot of welds. It is, after all a little unfair to denounce his ability on just one carp piece of workmanship. Let's see some more carp workmanship first.

I note that in an earlier post he referred to times based on double chined construction. The picture shown a few post back is just a single chined box. What happened to the other chine?
Another thing that does not fit with his explanations. I wonder if it sails like a box as well!!!

If BS is using pre coated steel & then welding joints, one wonders how the recently welded joint (all over the hull in & out) is prevented from going rusty prior to re coating. One assumes ( I must admit that i have never been there & never want to) that in the areas where he is carrying out these works humidity, & the resulting rust level, is high.

Perhaps not I do not know. if one welds something inside it must burn the finish outside- does it not?. This would need re treating fairly quickly. may i ask how this is dealt with?

The primer is all weldable, by all our rules, DOT and Compensation board approved ,and in common use here . We grind the welded parts , where the primer is burned.
My boat was done that way and the epoxy is 97% as good as the day I put it on 34 years ago
Al my boats are single chine, a fraction the work and complexity of a double chine.
I don't use transverse frames, which decades of frameless boats, by many designers , have proven totally, structurally redundant, in the size of boats we are dealing with here.
How is grinding the slag and welding "bodging the job"? How else would you do it?

 

[rotrax]

If you tried to weld a steel boat the way you do motorcyles , tig, oxy acetylene, etc it would take decades to weld . With such slow, tedious methods, its understandable you would be skeptical of my time lines .

Again you show your lack of knowledge.

Argon and TIG are as fast as arc or stick welding for long runs, once adjustments are made. A little extra time if the gas requires a bottle change. The only part you are correct about is that Oxy-Acetylene is the slowest-but nowhere near as slow as you say.

I made no definition of cruising, again that is your incorrect implication, but you told us VERY CLEARLY that you cruise for 11 months every year, and have done for decades. And your cruising, you would have us believe, is long distance and off the beaten track.

Not much time left to do anything else that year, is there?

My own cruising is slow, stopping at interesting places, meeting the locals, enjoying their culture and food and moving on.

Why do you think I am in Wellington, NZ at the moment-we are hanging out with the grandchildren for Christmas and the New Year holidays.

 

[DownWest]

I might argue that one Rotrax
If I was going to build a steel hull and had no kit, then Mig would be my choice. Prob buy a decent kit, then flog it after. Tig is slower and much more expensive (uses more gas than Mig), more suited for specialist welding of SS or Ally, except an ally hull would justify a pulse Mig set-up (which is what the pros use).
I learned oxy-acet by de-seaming a Mini, back in '67 but never use it now, just oxy-butane for heating and brazing. My w/shop has stick, a 285 Mig and a 200amp DC Tig, all in daily use, which is why I find BS's claims 'difficult' to accept. Plus, if he has done so much stick welding, why is he putting up photos of carp welds? I would be ashamed to have done welds like that, even if foamed over....

 

[rotrax]

I might argue that one Rotrax
If I was going to build a steel hull and had no kit, then Mig would be my choice. Prob buy a decent kit, then flog it after. Tig is slower and much more expensive (uses more gas than Mig), more suited for specialist welding of SS or Ally, except an ally hull would justify a pulse Mig set-up (which is what the pros use).
I learned oxy-acet by de-seaming a Mini, back in '67 but never use it now, just oxy-butane for heating and brazing. My w/shop has stick, a 285 Mig and a 200amp DC Tig, all in daily use, which is why I find BS's claims 'difficult' to accept. Plus, if he has done so much stick welding, why is he putting up photos of carp welds? I would be ashamed to have done welds like that, even if foamed over....

I have to agree-MIG is good option. I would prefer arc or stick welding for boat building or repair myself, if I ever decided to build one. Which is very unlikely at my time of life.

Now First Mate and I are retired we are too busy having a good time...………………

You conform my opinion on the quality of welding. It takes so little extra time to do a strong and presentable weld-why do a bad looking one that might be suspect.

Especially, why show it on an internet forum where it must reflect badly on ones workmanship.

 

[dom]

Being Christmas Eve tomorrow, one wonders if Brent, John, Rotrax, et al will spontaneously emerge from their virtual trenches to offer gifts, and perhaps even participate in a game of virtual football?

 

[Skylark]

And someone here claims they can determine the strength and penetration of a weld, by looking at an online photo of the slag on top of it?

I guess this is me? Although true to form it's a misrepresentation of what I actually wrote.

I was taught how to weld, gas and electric as an apprentice. During that training, I've had many test pieces thrown in the bin by the instructor well before being passed through to the stages of NDT and destructive testing, so, yes, I can recognise a poor weld by looking at it In my career, I've been around welding in industrial, oil & gas and military sectors. Welding is a knowledge based, disciplined skill which involves many variables. It's about attention to detail, for example welding dissimilar metals may require certain pre-conditioning. As many other posters have commented, Mr S, no one with the appropriate skill, to say nothing of simple pride in ones own work, would have posted the picture in the first place. It's obvious to all that you can't weld, you scored an own goal

Notwithstanding, compliments of the season :encouragement:

 

[DownWest]

Being Christmas Eve tomorrow, one wonders if Brent, John, Rotrax, et al will spontaneously emerge from their virtual trenches to offer gifts, and perhaps even participate in a game of virtual football?

It's Christmas, don't mention the war

 

[Daydream believer]

Al my boats are single chine, a fraction the work and complexity of a double chine.

So what was the reference to double chine for in post 83 then or have you sudenly changed the design to suit the thread.
As for slag. A decent weld will often shed the slag quite cleanly not leave it looking like uneven chicken s..t. Plus anyone welding with any skill will remove the slag, of course, but will not have to re weld over the first weld to cover up the holes left by inexperience. Over welding may be done for a different purpose but certainly not to " save time" Constant grinding can be reduced substantially if done properly & neatly. Your reference to it suggests that your main tool is the grinder.
But to be fair to you
Show some examples & decent lengths of " un doctored" welding- before over welding with slag chipped off. Should come off nice & easy with your quality of welding

 

[newtothis]

.No, Mr Anonymous I am not that dense. Speak for yourself.
You may define cruising as sailing full time, 24-7, 365 days a year, without ever stopping, for decades, without ever hitting a coffee shop or library ,or cruise the internet a bit ,but few cruisers share your definition. Most of us spend a couple of weeks here, a couple of weeks there, enjoying our freedom .Some of us even spend a few days at Xmas, close to family.

So, really, you're doing a bit of coastal marina hopping then. You could get a good GRP boat for that.
Good thing there are still some schmucks out there on the hamster wheel making those coffee shops and libraries available to you. Must be nice living off the back of other people's work.
And are we to assume you've got the tin can build time down to a "couple of weeks here, a couple of weeks there" now?

 

[oz-1]

Hi Brent. In 1968 i was an apprentice at Morgan Giles boatyard in Teignmouth, Devon. During the war Morgan Giles built wooden mine sweepers and afterwards built 'Monaco' cruisers in wood. They were beautiful boats. In the estuary opposite the boat yard there was a really lovely yacht on a mooring, the boat was ferrocement and called Blue Circle ( blue circle being the name of a cement manufacturer here). Afterwards i worked at a small yard near Starcross where we made the moulds for, and built 3 boats to a Ron Holland design, in GRP, and again they were nice boats.
In 1979 i emigrated to British Columbia and settled in a small town called Squamish. Having more disposable income, i built myself a Bruce Roberts designed double ender ( 281, i think ), as a one off in GRP. At the same time in Squamish itself, a man was building a Spray replica in steel outside his fabricating shop. He was doing a great job and the hull looked lovely and strong. Near the yacht club ( you might know Squamish Yacht club, great club & nice members ), another man was building a 25 foot yacht in strip planking with epoxy sheathing and his boat looked smashing. I sailed my boat round Vancouver island and went as far south as the San Juans off the Washington coast in the States. This was all done during nice weather, mind you. The steel Spray replica took off on a long voyage and the man with the strip planked hull also set off South to sunnier climes.
In 1989 i returned to the U.K. and in the winter of 1993 built myself a Bruce Bingham designed Flicka, again as a one off in GRP. My decision to build in this material was because of the ease of use and the speed of building plus the reduced maintenance compared to a wooden boat. Sailing locally here, iv'e seen Chay Blythes British Steel yacht off Dartmouth, and that was a really beautiful looking and capable steel boat.
your steel boats sound like very capable boats, the same as the boats built of different materials. A well built
boat of any material will look after it's owner and crew and a good skipper will look after his boat and feel safe in her, and be confident that she will see him/her to their destination. All the best to you Brent.

 

[ctelfer38]

Hi Brent. In 1968 i was an apprentice at Morgan Giles boatyard in Teignmouth, Devon. During the war Morgan Giles built wooden mine sweepers and afterwards built 'Monaco' cruisers in wood. They were beautiful boats. In the estuary opposite the boat yard there was a really lovely yacht on a mooring, the boat was ferrocement and called Blue Circle ( blue circle being the name of a cement manufacturer here). Afterwards i worked at a small yard near Starcross where we made the moulds for, and built 3 boats to a Ron Holland design, in GRP, and again they were nice boats.
In 1979 i emigrated to British Columbia and settled in a small town called Squamish. Having more disposable income, i built myself a Bruce Roberts designed double ender ( 281, i think ), as a one off in GRP. At the same time in Squamish itself, a man was building a Spray replica in steel outside his fabricating shop. He was doing a great job and the hull looked lovely and strong. Near the yacht club ( you might know Squamish Yacht club, great club & nice members ), another man was building a 25 foot yacht in strip planking with epoxy sheathing and his boat looked smashing. I sailed my boat round Vancouver island and went as far south as the San Juans off the Washington coast in the States. This was all done during nice weather, mind you. The steel Spray replica took off on a long voyage and the man with the strip planked hull also set off South to sunnier climes.
In 1989 i returned to the U.K. and in the winter of 1993 built myself a Bruce Bingham designed Flicka, again as a one off in GRP. My decision to build in this material was because of the ease of use and the speed of building plus the reduced maintenance compared to a wooden boat. Sailing locally here, iv'e seen Chay Blythes British Steel yacht off Dartmouth, and that was a really beautiful looking and capable steel boat.
your steel boats sound like very capable boats, the same as the boats built of different materials. A well built
boat of any material will look after it's owner and crew and a good skipper will look after his boat and feel safe in her, and be confident that she will see him/her to their destination. All the best to you Brent.

Thank goodness for a post from someone with whom it would be pleasure to sail with. I was close to retiring from this site having been to my shame transfixed by this thread - much as one might be by a motorway pileup. By the way, I am the happy owner of an 80 year old sailing yacht built in beautiful mahogany. CharlesT

 

[DownWest]

Thank goodness for a post from someone with whom it would be pleasure to sail with. I was close to retiring from this site having been to my shame transfixed by this thread - much as one might be by a motorway pileup. By the way, I am the happy owner of an 80 year old sailing yacht built in beautiful mahogany. CharlesT

Umm, you seem to have missed the point of this thread..
It is about BS's single mindedness and denegration of anybody who disagrees with him on steel boats.
Oz-1's and your input are where most people find themselves.

Actually it was not, but became it with Brent's input. More the pity.

 

[Brent Swain]

Again you show your lack of knowledge.

Argon and TIG are as fast as arc or stick welding for long runs, once adjustments are made. A little extra time if the gas requires a bottle change. The only part you are correct about is that Oxy-Acetylene is the slowest-but nowhere near as slow as you say.

I made no definition of cruising, again that is your incorrect implication, but you told us VERY CLEARLY that you cruise for 11 months every year, and have done for decades. And your cruising, you would have us believe, is long distance and off the beaten track.

Not much time left to do anything else that year, is there?

My own cruising is slow, stopping at interesting places, meeting the locals, enjoying their culture and food and moving on.

Why do you think I am in Wellington, NZ at the moment-we are hanging out with the grandchildren for Christmas and the New Year holidays.

Some is well off the beaten track, like trips to Haida Gwai , Fanning, etc , some less so, like here in the Salish Sea.
ZERO internet at Fanning .
North coast ,Shearwater, Bella Bella, Queen Charlotte City, Port McNiel , Port Hardy, that's about it for internet access. Lots in the Salish Sea.
I once sailed from Secret Cove to Sechelt with internet access the whole way.

 

[Brent Swain]

Vancouver marine surveyor Paul Dupe once bought a steel boat called "Waskazoo."It was universally considered the worst built, worst welded, ugliest boat on the coast. It had however ,a new Yanmar diesel in her, with under 50 hours on it, beautiful stainless tanks, prop, shaft, good rig ( I got the sail track) good sails, etc, etc, worth far more than the pittance Paul paid for her . After stripping the goodies off her, he spent 8 hours trying to break her up with a back hoe, without being able to put a single hole in her, despite her slag filled, horrendous welding.
What would 8 hours of a back hoe to do to a wooden boat?
Laughable ,how those who would never question a boat held together by a copper fastening in red cedar every 6 inches, held together by friction between the wood and the nail, would ridicule the strength of a less than perfect weld.
When I start a boat, I let the owner weld the lugs on, for pulling the hull together. It is often the first time they have ever tried welding of any kind. The welds usually look horrendous. After they are no longer needed, I give them a sledge hammer, and let them try knocking them off. They bend them back and forth many times ,before they break, always above the weld, well away from it, showing clearly that their horrendous looking first weld , is far stronger than the plate, making them unlikely to ever believe welders attempts to bull their way onto a sanctimonius pedestal.

Then, I ask them "How do you think that compares to a copper fastening in red cedar every six inches? Plastic decks glued on plastic hulls with bulkheads basically glued in, with polyester ,a very poor bonding agent.
When wood was the only option for ocean cruising ,it was considered a daredevil feat to cross an ocean in a small boat , and many who did , wrote a book about it."

Test your welds this way , John , before you believe any more off their bull.

 

[Brent Swain]

So what was the reference to double chine for in post 83 then or have you sudenly changed the design to suit the thread.
As for slag. A decent weld will often shed the slag quite cleanly not leave it looking like uneven chicken s..t. Plus anyone welding with any skill will remove the slag, of course, but will not have to re weld over the first weld to cover up the holes left by inexperience. Over welding may be done for a different purpose but certainly not to " save time" Constant grinding can be reduced substantially if done properly & neatly. Your reference to it suggests that your main tool is the grinder.
But to be fair to you
Show some examples & decent lengths of " un doctored" welding- before over welding with slag chipped off. Should come off nice & easy with your quality of welding

One can easily remove the bulk of the slag ,by sliding a big piece of half inch plate with a shear cut on the end, along the plate. When the sheared end hits the slag, it slices it neatly off, leaving far less grinding to do, than having to grind all the way thru the slag. Tilting the torch away from the piece you want to save, towards the scrap ,blows almost all the slag onto the scrap piece and leaving little on the piece you want to save.

 

[rotrax]

Vancouver marine surveyor Paul Dupe once bought a steel bot called "Waskazoo."It was universally considered the worst built, worst welded, ugliest boat on the coast.It had however a new Yanmar diesel in her, with under 50- hours on it, beautiful stainless tanks, prop, shaft, good rig ( I got the sail track) good sails, etc, etc, worth far more than the pittance Paul paid for her .After stripping the goodies off her, he spent 8 hours trying to break her up with a back hoe, without being able to put a single hole in her, despite her slag filled, horrendous welding. What would 8 hours of a back hoe to do to a wooden boat?
Laughable how those who would never question a boat held together by a copper fastening in red cedar every 6 inches, held together by friction between the wood and the nail, would ridicule the strength of a less than perfect weld.
When I start a boat, I let the owner weld the lugs on for pulling the hull together. It is often the first time they have ever tried welding of any kind. The welds usually look horrendous. After they are no longer needed, I give them a sledge hammer, and let them try knocking them off. They bend them back and forth many times ,before they break, always above the weld, well away from it, showing clearly that their horrendous looking first weld is far stronger than the plate, making them unlikely to ever believe welders attempts to bull their way onto a sanctimonius pedestal.

Then, I ask them "How do you think that compares to a copper fastening in red cedar every six inches? When wood was the only option for ocean cruising ,it was considered a daredevil feat to cross an ocean in a small boat , and many who did , wrote a book about it."
Test your welds this way , John , before you believe any more off their bull.

And a well respected British boating magazine tried to destroy a GRP boat during a series called "Crash Test Boat" They did not find it easy.

The point is accepted BS, that steel is stronger. I and others accept this.

The fact that the surveyor bought a steel boat for pittance shows the underlying truth of steel boats for leisure use. They are not popular with owners for leisure use. For your use, and others who think like you, they are perfect. For those who cant for various reasons use a boat as you do they are not so user friendly as boats made from other materials.

I have accepted your philosophy, without calling your boat a rust bucket.

Perhaps, now you have seen how easy it can be to be polite on an internet forum, you might consider dropping the derogatory terms you use to describe GRP boats.

Please-pretty please...…………………………...